Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 September 23

= September 23 =

Wikipedia-related Question about Talk:Hot dog
So I have a question about the talk page of this article. It would be inappropriate to bring it up there as it does not relate to improvement of the article so I will ask here. Is there any reason why this topic has 38 pages of archives (more than Talk:Israel)? Someone must have been around here long enough to know why. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 00:36, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * From a very quick look at the archives, I suspect that it has been set to create an archive far too often: some of the archives seem to only have a single entry. (If a knowledgeable geek can fix this, can they have a look at Talk:Amy Winehouse - it seems to have much the same problem, though this was probably adjusted in the days after her death). AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:45, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, Winehouse, whole mess of problems there; her talkpage seems just fine now though. :p (Not a BLP violation) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 02:31, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The archive bot was turned off some time ago. Looking at the history (early September 2008) particularly     I'm not actually sure what happened as I don't see any error in the bot config. The bot seems to have kept deciding the archive page was full (although the set limits were 50K and 250K) so would move on to the next page but didn't increment the counter so would then go back to the earlier page next time it was run. This meant once it had been run initially, it tended to archive one thread each to archive 1 and archive 2 each time it was run(since the minthreadstoarchive wasn't set so defaulted to 2 so it usually archived 2 at a time). In any case, someone is fixing the archives now. Nil Einne (talk) 01:43, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It might have something to do with ED. The archive was called to my attention a long time ago when I read the ED article on Wiki. It's possible someone saw it linked on the article about Wiki and decided to increase the number of pages by screwing up the bot to further emphasise the point. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 01:48, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I think I finally worked out what was wrong. I'd noticed for a while that Talk:Hot dog wasn't getting archived when it should have been. Eventually I semi forgot about it. But I thought of it again today, and after a lot of searching finally managed to find this thread again and remember what the page being discussed was. I tried some settigns to attempt to fix it which I didn't expect to help but didn't wait long enough to see if they had an effect. Then I did some searches for the archive bot not working and found Bot owners' noticeboard/Archive 5 which actually refers to the original problem, multiple archive pages if the template close }} is not in a new line. In the past, it seems this cause the aforementioned bug. Now I presume the bot just doesn't work on the page. I haven't waited long enough but I'm guessing the bot is going to start archiving soon. (I reverted all my changes bar the newline change to ensure it's the only needed fix.) I wasn't aware this was necessary although I seem to remember trying something like this before when the bot wasn't working, just not realising it fixed it. Although it could be which may or may not have fixed the bot there. Nil Einne (talk) 17:33, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Dr Who: A Journey Through Time ( annual 1985)
Hello, I have a (falling apart) hardback of a 1985 Dr. Who annual: A Journey Through Time. I'd like more information or synopsis of some of the stories included, b/c I am missing quite a few pages. I'd rather not buy a new issue, as I am just missing a few conclusions to some of the stories: In one, the doctor is on a "planet" that turns out to be the "inside" of meteor sized alien organism, and the part I have ends with him being suffocated by the organism. I want to know what happens. In another story, the Doctor's Companions are in a modern day city (I think San Francisco, but I may be wrong) and they are invisible to the naked eye due to alien intervention. Does anyone know of a blog, website, or other source that details these stories and what happens? Thanks, Quinn &#9617; RAIN 03:58, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * According to the TARDIS wiki, that volume is a reprint of stories from earlier Doctor Who annuals. The TARDIS Wiki seems to have summaries of some but not all stories, if you know the titles.  There's a bit more information on the book at the Doctor Who Collectors' Wiki.  The best place to ask for Dr Who information is probably Gallifrey Base (the successor to the defunct Outpost Gallifrey); some of the people there are incredibly knowledgeable. --Colapeninsula (talk) 12:42, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Aeroflot fleet
What aircraft does Aeroflot currently use for flights over the Arctic between Russia and the USA? I remember that the one time I've flown Aeroflot on the Eielson route (Moscow to Anchorage), they used a four-engined Ilyushin 62, but that was quite a while ago. Is the Ilyushin still in use on that route, or has it been replaced? 67.169.177.176 (talk) 06:47, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * You can find the relevant info about their current fleet in their article; and before you think I am stalking you, I just happen to have all of these reference desks on my watchlist. I see it all coming together now though. Trying to sabotage the Electra plane flown by the kharedi so that he will have a mid-air collision with an Aeroflot jet! Fiendish my good sir, fiendish. I think you can also find what plane flys what on FlightAware, lemme go look. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 24 Elul 5771 06:53, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Nope, you don't see it coming together at all. (Not unless you suppose that an Electra 10-E flying from Addis Abeba to Ahmadabad can somehow collide with a VC-10 flying from Moscow to Seattle!)  In fact, these questions are for two completely separate projects (though admittedly part of the same series, and with a very few characters in common).  As for FlightAware, thanks for the tip, I'll go look myself. 67.169.177.176 (talk) 20:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Just checked FlightAware -- they show several Russia-US flights that have arrived (mostly Airbuses of various models), but none in the air. Very strange... 67.169.177.176 (talk) 22:50, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Years ago I remember flying Aeroflot Moscow to London at what seemed like naught feet, with an apple given me for lunch, and a seat that was insecure. Just like I felt really! --85.211.209.246 (talk) 06:28, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Date of photograph vis a vis automobiles
I'm trying to date this photograph taken in Union City, New Jersey. It's probably from the 1920s (and if it's pre-1925, it would be West Hoboken, New Jersey, not Union City). I'm trying to get as precise date as I can from the cars in the photo. Can anyone tell me the make, model and date of the cars in the photo? Either the two in the center foreground or that one in the right background would be fine; anything that would allow me to date the photo. Nightscream (talk) 09:39, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The caption on the card says it is Union City, but Union City, New Jersey the article on the city says it was incorporated June 1, 1925, so I guess you suspect the photo might have been taken before than date. Without that data the question was puzzling.  Edison (talk) 14:24, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, I missed that. But that only means it dates from after 1925. I wanted to get more specific than that. Nightscream (talk) 15:38, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Near as I can tell, the cars seem to be Ford Model As. Given the small windows toward the back, I'd lean toward the 1929-1931 sedan models. Avic ennasis @ 16:18, 24 Elul 5771 / 16:18, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * An online store sells prints of that photo, identified as circa 1920. I don't know if it be possible to date it any more accurately than that, especially from the cars.  Even if you could pin down the precise model year of a car in the shot, that would only give a lower bound as there'd be no way of knowing how old the vehicle was. The page I linked has an email address where you can ask about the products, so perhaps they can tell you more about the photo's origin.  AJ  Cham  00:44, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Is the caption above the photo is contemporaneous with the photo itself, then it cannot be 1920, because Union City didn't exist until June 1, 1925. I notice that the photo being sold on that sight doesn't include the caption, so maybe it was added later. But if the year estimate is correct, then it's wrong to call it Union City, since Union City didn't exist then. It would've been Union or Union Hill. Again, any auto experts here? Nightscream (talk) 02:14, 24 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not an auto expert, but I can say that it looks to me like it is a postcard photo. The color process (chunky halftone with that particular coloring scheme), the caption, and the numbering (176 in the corner) all look like other postcards from the 1900s-1930s that I have seen (compare with these). If you have access to whomever has an original, ask them to check for a postmark on the back. Just an idea. --Mr.98 (talk) 04:35, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

It is a postcard. Nightscream (talk) 16:14, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Positively identifying automobiles form that era (late 1920s) is much more difficult than from later periods. This was a time when custom coach work was ubiquitous.  Customers would frequently replace part or all of the original body with custom work from small suppliers.  Thus there were thousands of different body styles.  On top of that, styling differences between vehicles were much less than today, take a look at late 1920s American four door sedans, they all look very similar; ideas about planned obsolescence and branding having not been developed. Further there were many more brands than they are today. Now that the excuses are out of the way... there are a couple of identifying features to go with.  First is the swept cowling behind the hood.  This makes it unlikely to be a Packard and makes it more likely a Dodge, Ford Nash or even a Graham-Paige.  The other feature is what appears to be the presence of two pillars rearward of the front door before the rear corner pillar (giving it 4 windows on each side).  This is unusual, but given the fact that it could be custom work doesn't give too much to go on. I think this this layout was most common for hearses or funeral cars.  What is certain is that this is a late 1920s or very early 1930s sedan.  I don't think having a precise model would give you a more precise date, who knows maybe it is a picture of a classic car show taken in the 90s... -- Daniel  17:20, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Daniel. I appreciate the time and effort you put into this. Thanks also to you, Avicennasis, as I did not see your earlier response until just now. I got a response from the postcard vendor, and he says that it was definitely from the Union City era, as the vendor sold that item to a man whose first job was as an usher at one of the theatres. This would place it after June 1, 1925, and the vendor adds that it's closer to 1930 than 1920. That's definitely an improvement. Nightscream (talk) 19:48, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

meerut cantonment population
dear sir

could you kindly provide data of meerut cantonment as it's eight different wards,its total population of different 8 ward, or ward wise population ,military population, civil population,total,general.sc/st,obc,of 8 different ward wise according to census 2011.

regards gaurav (removed email address) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.205.100.210 (talk) 12:48, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I removed the email address following Wikipedia reference desk policy, reformatted the question for legibility (per guidelines), and removed a duplicate of this question. Any replies to this question about Meerut will be made on this page. --Colapeninsula (talk) 13:10, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Is there a term for pseudo-rewards ?
Higher scores in arcade games motivate the players and create a false sense of being rewarded. The reward is hypothetical and absolutely worthless. I call these pseudo-rewards. Is there any term in psychology or philosophy for such hypothetical rewards ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ezuhaib (talk • contribs) 13:21, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, the Grinding (video gaming) article discusses the process (and a bit about the Skinnerian psychology people claim is involved) but doesn't give a name for the proceeds thereof. Virtual good discusses the worthless "objects" acquired, experience point the worthless numbers incremented, and egoboo the worthless plaudits given by real people. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 13:56, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I read about egoboo. That's quite interesting and relevant. Ezuhaib (talk)
 * Egoboo's aren't worthless. They can have real value in terms of book sales, social respect, and so on. In any case, having one's ego boosted periodically can have a major effect on one's later life. Social reinforcement can be a real psychological commodity. I'm not sure why anyone would call that "worthless" — it can't be directly turned into cash, but it can do a lot of other things, some of which can be turned into cash, sex, whatever you value. --Mr.98 (talk) 20:32, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * My understanding (scant though it is) of Skinnerian psychology is that there is no distinction between a "reward" and a "pseudo-reward." All rewards are rewards if they are valued by the organism. They are not absolutely worthless if they are valued by the organism. How one would draw the line is completely unclear to me, in particular because things like high scores or virtual goods actually do often have recognizable benefits in the "real world" (they often correspond to a form of social capital, for example). It also seems quite silly to start trying to draw the line around video games, where you could easily expand that to all games, and from there to huge other arenas where results are often non-tangible (art? religion? knowledge for its own sake?). Would a Nobel Prize be a worthless award if it didn't come with cash attached to it — is the cash what makes it desired? --Mr.98 (talk) 15:04, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm using games just as an example here. You're right in that a reward needs not to be physical. I was just wondering if a distinction exists between the tangible rewards related to one's biological drives and the hypothetical ones related to one's psychological drives. In the article reward system, the terms "Natural reward" and "Secondary reward" have been used. I wonder if these are scientific terminology. Ezuhaib (talk)
 * Sure, "secondary" vs. "primary" awards can be used to distinguish different types of reward systems. The terminology is used quite a lot of behavioral psychology. But as I'm sure you can see from that article, that's much broader than your original question (because money itself falls into the "secondary" category). There's nothing "hypothetical and absolutely worthless" about secondary rewards. (If you think there is, I'd be happy to take some of your "worthless" secondary rewards off your hand...) --Mr.98 (talk) 20:30, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I suppose from an evolutionary perspective the only true rewards are ones that tend to increase your chances of surviving to pass on your genes (or maybe helping relatives do the same). Under that definition, very few "rewards" would qualify.  Even money may not qualify, in some circumstances. StuRat (talk) 16:06, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * At that point you've watered down the term "reward" that it no longer is distinguishable from any other evolutionary effect. --Mr.98 (talk) 20:30, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Maybe the term attaboy is somewhat relevent here. -- Jayron  32  18:26, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Huh? --Mr.98 (talk) 20:32, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * American teenagers seem to be losing their ability to frame questions and instead make statements terminated in an interrogatory grunt, as in "Must be great to be rich huh?". Has this linguistic evolution come so far that now only a grunt remains? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:51, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Pppbbbtt. --Mr.98 (talk) 04:38, 24 September 2011 (UTC)


 * To be completely fair, there's a certain prestige from having your name publicly displayed on an arcade machine's high score list. Depending on your social circle, that might not be worthless to you at all. (Playing the same game on a home machine, you don't get nearly the same thrill from achieving a high score. This became a challenge for home game designers to keep player's interested in the game's 'rewards' when score itself became meaningless.) APL (talk) 03:34, 24 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It's only completely pointless now that we all have individual machines. When we used to share a family computer, my family had intense competition over days, weeks, even months, trying to beat each other's minesweeper and pinball scores. People would stay at the machine for hours, unwilling to leave until they could saunter away with the smugness of a secret high score, waiting to be discovered by the next person. Maybe we were unusually competitive? It would get pretty destructive as the score got unreasonably high, until someone cracked and wiped the high scores, starting the whole thing over. 86.164.78.26 (talk) 09:08, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Good grades are sometimes just an ego thing, sometimes they increase your chances of being invited (which simply means you have to apply to more jobs, if you have less than average grades). Quest09 (talk) 19:19, 25 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Ayn Rand holds that values are objective in so far as they are life-furthering. Most non-sola fide Christian faiths hold that actions which further or secure the goal of salvation are objectively good.  Classsical Austrian school economists like Ludwig von Mises hold that value is inherently subjective.  Ecological and evolutionary biologists define fitness as reproductive success.  You are free to deride the joys of others as pseudo-rewards.  If you would let them pursue their goals nonetheless you may be either a moral relativist or a libertarian or a classic liberal.  If you think that the silliness of the goals of others is a reason to force them to act otherwise you are probably a puritan or a progressive or worse.  I suggest that a concern with the silliness of the goals of others is a particularly pernicious form of second-handedness.μηδείς (talk) 21:27, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Airline fleet grounding
Is it a normal practice for any airline of significant size to have its entire fleet on the ground at any time? Seems to me that at least a few of their aircraft should be in the air at any given instant... 67.169.177.176 (talk) 22:54, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * For an airline with limited geographical range and good scheduling, it's quite believable that they'll have all their planes on the ground for a few hours every night: there's just not enough traffic to justify operating flights at those times. More often, though, an airline will have some positioning flights going on to get all their airplanes in the right places for the morning rush. --Carnildo (talk) 00:13, 24 September 2011 (UTC)


 * What about a major international airline like Aeroflot? 67.169.177.176 (talk) 04:09, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Highly unlikely that an international airline like Aeroflot dont have an aircraft airborne somewhere in the world, Russia spreads over a number of time-zones so the limited time domestic flights are not flying you would expect some of the international flights to be airborne somewhere, although it may be only one or two long-haul flights. MilborneOne (talk) 16:24, 24 September 2011 (UTC)