Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2012 April 18

= April 18 =

Pitchers in the Outfield
I can't remember the guy's name but I just saw an amazing video of a US MLB pitcher who now plays outfield throw a ball to home plate directly to stop a man from scoring, amounting to nearly 300ft with such precision accuracy that the announcer said he was the best arm in baseball ever for an outfielder. My question is: if outfielders need to throw infield for almost anything they catch or field, why not train them like pitchers all the time? Perhaps this is a stupid question because I can't imagine that the managers and trainers don't think about baseball 24/7 when I think about it for just 3 minutes one day in my life after seeing this video.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 02:56, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright -- his name is Rick Ankiel.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 02:57, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Ankiel is a special case; he's pretty much the first player since Babe Ruth to be able to make the transition from pitcher to position player, so you really cannot base what should happen based on how he did it. Most outfielders aren't supposed to make a throw like that, instead they are trained to throw to the "cut-off" man (an infielder who positions himself in shallow outfield to catch the ball from the outfielder and relay it to the correct place.).  Outfielders who try to throw out a man "on the fly" from the outfield directly frequently go horribly awry, though such bonehead attempts occasionally lead to spectacular recoveries like the Jeter "Flip Play" as seen at 4:10 here.  Outfielders are trained from little league to "hit the cutoff man" since most don't have the kind of accuracy Ankiel displayed on your play.  If they did have that kind of accuracy they'd be pitchers instead.   -- Jayron  32  03:19, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't believe it's just accuracy. If you throw to the cutoff man you can throw lower, which means the ball wastes less time going up and down.  It takes time for the cutoff man to catch the ball, spin, and throw to the plate (or other base), but I believe even with that, it's still faster.  --Trovatore (talk) 03:24, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Another reason for the cutoff man is to allow the play to be adjusted based on what's happened while the ball's on the way in. If there's a rundown or a runner from third didn't break to the plate the cut-off man (if he's on his game) can adjust, and can at the same time make up for inaccurate outfield throws when a player tied to a base or the plate can't.  Acroterion   (talk)   03:31, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Though occasionally a cut-off man can be the reason things go bad, c.f. 1946 World Series and Enos "Country" Slaughter's Mad Dash, aided by Johnny Pesky holding the ball a bit too long before relaying it home. -- Jayron  32  03:51, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * And then there was the time that Dave Winfield plugged a seagull, if you recall that. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:14, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


 * A few outfielders are able to make the throw from the outfield to home plate directly, but they're the exception. Roberto Clemente was one, as was Dave Parker, who famously threw out Brian Downing at home in the 1979 All-Star Game on a throw from the right field corner. But these are the top 1% of outfield arms; I'm not sure that most pitchers would be able to make such throws; they practice throwing at a target 60 feet and 6 inches away, not 300 feet, and even at the shorter distance, they often miss. --Xuxl (talk) 12:10, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Here's the Parker play. The right field corner was 316 feet from the plate, and he was some distance in front of that, but it was still a bullet. It's one of those situations where if you throw to the plate, he might score, but if you throw to the cutoff man, he will score, so you take your best shot. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:19, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Willie Mays made a pretty good throw after this catch: ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:46, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Outfielders are not trained like pitchers because it is much more important for an outfielder to be able to hit well than for a pitcher to be able to hit well. Speed and agility are also much more important for outfielders than for pitchers. Looie496 (talk) 21:04, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

As a cricket fan, this doesn't seem so remarkable. Cricketers need to be able to throw from the edge of the cricket field to its centre.

Australian grounds are notoriously large - The Gabba and the The MCG, according to our articles, have longest boundaries of approx 170 metres. Dividing that in half (you only have to return the ball to the centre, not the far side), that's a throw of c.80+ metres, or about 270 feet.

Although some cannot, many professional cricketers are able to make throws from the boundary, and the better ones are able to do so very accurately and with good pace ("flat" throws). Some of them eventually damage their shoulders and lose their ability.

The standards of fielding in cricket have risen enormously in recent years, following developments in the game, notably one day cricket and more recently, Twenty 20 cricket. Interestingly, a number of top teams have, in the past, used coaches from baseball, to help them develop their fielding skills.

Even on these unusually large Australian grounds, seeing a cricketer throw fast and accurately from the boundary would gain a ripple of applause from the fans present (virtually anything in cricket will gain a ripple of applause though) and maybe an acknowledgement from the commentator, but no great excitement. --Dweller (talk) 10:59, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

famous people from Rochdale
I checked the list of famous people from Rochdale and found I was missing (Anna Jacobs). I don't wish to sound conceited but I think that with 57 novels published, I should be included. I'm very proud of coming from Rochdale, actually.

I don't seem to be able to edit the page on Anna Jacobs, either, even though it's lacking information I could easily supply. I gather one can't touch one's own page. I did make changes a few years ago, but they vanished.

I'm therefore a bit at a loss as to how to add myself to the Famous People from Rochdale page. I was born and brought up in Rochdale. I'm a novelist with 57 novels published, many of them set in Lancashire. I'm currently the 8th Most Borrowed Author of Adult Fiction in the UK library system. For verification, see: http://www.plr.uk.com/mediaCentre/mostBorrowedAuthors/top20Authors/2010-2011Top20Authors.pdf

You can find out more about me on my website at http://www.annajacobs.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.88.91 (talk) 05:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * What happens when you try to edit Anna Jacobs ? You are allowed to edit your own article, but try not to make it look like a press release.  Just remember this is an encyclopedia, and you should do fine.


 * What happens when you try to edit List of people from Rochdale ? One possible problem is that they expect sources, so unsourced changes may be deleted.  After all, we have no way of knowing if you really are Anna, and you wouldn't want random people to be able to make permanent changes with "facts" that they just invented.


 * One possibility is that those articles don't allow edits by unregistered users. If that's the problem, you just need to register and sign in.  StuRat (talk) 06:08, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * You are obviously a genuinely well-known author, so I've added a mention of Rochdale in the article about you, and a brief mention of you in the Rochdale article. The edits you made to your own article are still there.  The only part removed is the promotion of your own website.  You are welcome to add more, but make sure that the information is factual rather than promotional, and cite sources (such as the Rochdale Observer).    D b f i r s   08:01, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * According to the page history, nobody has added or removed Anna Jacobs to/from List of people from Rochdale lately (nobody is reverting her changes). You should be able to edit it by clicking on the "Edit" link at the top-right of the page, and format your entry like the other entries on the page.   Remember to click "Save page" afterwards.  Have a look at Help:Editing and Help:Contents/Editing Wikipedia for more information. --Colapeninsula (talk) 08:42, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * @Anna: I suggest you read Autobiography. Writing about yourself is not precluded, but it is discouraged.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:53, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The List of people from Rochdale is really difficult to edit, for you would have to start a new ===J=== section and include a reference, which is too difficult for a Wikipedia beginner. Several editors claiming to be Anna Jacobs edited the Anna Jacobs article in the past with remarkable contributions, but as long as the official Anna Jacobs website remains silent on her birthdate, birthplace and real name, there is little hope to get it fixed. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 12:21, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Would ROCHDALE-born author Anna Jacobs do? Alansplodge (talk) 00:02, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I have now added Anna Jacobs to the list. Alansplodge (talk) 21:31, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

What was the title of the SBS during the Korean War?
Wikipedia Posts on the names of the SBS include Special Boat Section during WWII, Special Boat Squadron "after the Second World War," and Special Boat Service in 1987. However, there is another statement saying the Special Boat Squadron designation occurred in 1977, certainly after WWII, but leaving uncertainty of the name between WWII and 1977. Is it correct to assume that SBS was known as the Special Boat Section during the Korean War? Is there a direct reference? Thank you. Rnfriedman44 (talk) 10:45, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The Historical Dictionary of Naval Intelligence By Nigel West has an entry entitled Special Boat Section which says: "However, in 1951, two Royal Marine Special Boat Sections were created to conduct operations during the Korean War.". The immedeate post-WWII history seems to be rather more complicated according to The Royal Marines 1939-93 By Nick Bijl, Paul Hannon which I'll let you read for yourself. An even more detailed account can be found on this website which says: "In 1950 this (ie the Small Raids Wing) became the Special Boat Wing, made up of Special Boat Sections, thus reviving the initials SBS, and both an operational and training unit. Swimmer-canoeists, as the members of this unit were known from the start, were among those who volunteered for No.41 Independent Commando, the RM unit which served in Korea 1950-51." Another, similar account is here. Good luck sorting that lot out. Alansplodge (talk) 16:24, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Anne Fogarty/Poppy Cannon parentage confusion
OK, I'm sorry because this is a bit tricky/complex, but I've had no response to this and it's bugging me that I can't work out a definite answer.

Several sources - quite a few actually - state that Poppy Cannon was Anne Fogarty's sister. But there is some confusion as to the parents. I posted most of the following info on Talk:Poppy Cannon but haven't had a response, so I thought I'd ask here.

1) Anne Fogarty's parents, as per this book, are stated to be Robert (a shopkeeper) and Marion Whitney. The same source also indicates that Poppy was her sister. Many sources do link them as being siblings.

2) However, Yale, here, states that Poppy was born Lillian Gruskin in Cape Town, South Africa, the eldest of four children. Her parents are stated to be Robert (an artist) and Henrietta Gruskin.

The similarities are:

Both have fathers called Robert. Both are one of four children (Poppy the eldest, Anne the youngest). Both are said to have lived in Pennsylvania. (Poppy in Kittening, Anne in Pittsburgh, although the family could have moved around Pennsylvania, I guess.)

The big difference is the surnames and the mother's names: Henrietta Gruskin vs. Marion Whitney. Different parts of Pennsylvania.

I tried Googling Gruskin and Whitney in Google News to see if anything came up linking the names but just got five lists of attendees/graduates - no marriage announcements or anything.

As sources go, I'd tend to assume that Yale know what they're talking about, but the lack of extra corroboration for the Gruskin link is confusing. My guess - which can ONLY be speculation - is that the Whitneys were originally called Gruskin (as per the Yale bio) and changed their name to Whitney for whatever reason, with Henrietta also changing her first name - or - sudden thought - was Marion Robert's second wife, and Henrietta's maiden name Gruskin? (although doesn't explain why Yale say "Robert Gruskin") All a bit confusing and I'm not sure you guys would be able to help but I thought I'd ask anyway as I'm a bit flummoxed. Thanks so much in advance!! Mabalu (talk) 17:04, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

if i have been in a viper parade can i still volunteer to go on the system ?
if i have been in a viper parade can i still volunteer to go on the system ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Konne69 (talk • contribs) 20:33, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I guess you're talking about VIPER, right? -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 20:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * If so, you should probably email them and ask -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 20:39, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * cheers mate :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Konne69 (talk • contribs) 21:19, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * No, thank you. One of the purposes of the Wikipedia reference desk is to expose places where Wikipedia's coverage is weak or missing altogether. Thanks to your question I did some research and created Video Identification Parade Electronic Recording. I'm afraid it doesn't answer your question, but it does explain a bit what VIPER is. Worse (hint hint other refdesk layabouts) it exposes how poor the existing police lineup article is. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 22:33, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Grr, I love and hate the English language. "no, thank you" can mean "no, the thanks belong to you" and its opposite "no, I'm not interested in the thing you said". Naturally I mean the former. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 23:17, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Or the meaning I took: that you can't be in VIPER after having been in a line-up (presumably as the alleged perp). I noticed we had nothing on Local Criminal Justice Boards today, but I'm less diligent than FMcW. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:22, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Try "No: thank you." --Tango (talk) 09:04, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I see a problem with the VIPER system. If, eventually, they can find the 4 other people on the planet who most resemble the suspect, then nobody will be able to make a positive identification.  So, whether they can make an identification now becomes entirely dependent on how close the other selected people are.  This allows the police to decide if they want there to be a match or not, and pick the line-up accordingly.  Fellow police officers, for example, can now never be identified in a lineup, while a cop killer suspect will be in a lineup against only elderly Asian women (assuming that doesn't describe the suspect).  The last part was always possible, but the first part is new. StuRat (talk) 03:27, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Just make sure whoever chooses the lineup doesn't know anything about the suspect, other than what they look like. --Tango (talk) 09:06, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


 * That still allows for racism to weigh the odds heavily. StuRat (talk) 15:48, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Baffled by pumpkin seeds
This is a strange question but how the hell are you supposed to eat pumpkin seeds? I got a bag, never had them before. I guess they're edible without shelling but they are impossibly salty, and the shell is not very food-like. On the other hand, they are impossible to shell and such meager pickings after you try. What's the deal? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.54.27.24 (talk) 23:45, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * When I buy pumpkin seeds from the supermarket, they're soft and green and look like the 2nd picture on this webpage. It sounds to me like you're getting ones that look like the first picture on that site (aren't they just for parrots, who have a tougher beak than you?). I don't know how to shell those. But if you do get 'em de-shelled (or buy them de-shelled, or get a parrot to do it for you) I recommend dry-frying them (just put them in a hot pan for a few minutes, with no oil or anything). Once they change colour just a tad, pour them over salad. They're just great that way. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 23:57, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd boil them. That should definitely remove some of the salt, and might help them open, too.  If not, at least they will be softer when you eat them whole.  Just soaking might help, too. StuRat (talk) 00:59, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


 * We used to buy and eat baked or (maybe it was roasted) pumpkin seeds when we were kids. We ate them whole, and they were indeed heavily salted, with a fairly soft shell. Now, sunflower seeds are much harder. The experts crack them in their teeth, swallow the "meat" and spit out the shell, seemingly all in one motion. (This has become a widespread substitute for chewing tobacco in baseball.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:11, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Well the ones I have are these to be exact. The reason I bought them is that a friend recently introduced me to pumpkin seed oil, which is incredibly delicious and is apparently used a lot in parts of Europe (especially Austria) for various things. Anyway, it's amazing and different on salads.Getting back to the seeds, maybe I just bought the wrong variety. No offense but the though of soaking them is not appetizing to me. I donlt think even the most mouth fixated baseball player could work with the ones I have.--108.54.27.24 (talk) 01:32, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


 * If they have salt on them that to me is a clear indication that they have been roasted. Try these two ways of opening them. Take a seed and gently bite on it edgeways with your front teeth, with luck the two sides will split apart giving you access to the roasted kernel (so to speak). The other way is to hold the seed edgeways in your teeth (that is with the seed edges in contact with the teeth) and with your finger and thumb give it a twist, this should also split the seed. Worked for me when i used to eat them. Richard Avery (talk) 07:24, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


 * There's no need to shell them before eating them; the whole seed is edible. The ones bought in bags, especially from convenience stores &c., do tend to be very, very salty.  At least around here, where there is a pretty sizable Latino population, shelled pumpkin seeds are sold under the name pepita.   --some jerk on the Internet    (talk)  12:35, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Give up.? Along with an unknown percentage of the population, you find pumpkin seeds practically inedible. I do to. You're not doing it wrong. That's just pumpkin seeds for you.178.78.88.114 (talk) 18:08, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually I wonder if there is an 'active ingredient' something alkaloid or peppery, possibly intended to discourage the eating of seeds by some animals. I think the effect of the seeds appears to be slightly more than one would expect from just a very salty nut. I get a sort of tightness in the chest, and I'm not the only one - but all my searching was in vain - I couldn't find any real reference to this. Anyone else knwo?178.78.88.114 (talk) 23:00, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


 * If it were me, and I experienced this, I would avoid all contact with pumpkin seeds until I had described the reaction to my doctor, and heard their advice. 86.140.54.3 (talk) 15:38, 22 April 2012 (UTC)