Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2012 August 15

= August 15 =

VACCC colors
I recently found myself looking at some color charts with names I was quite unfamiliar with, such as "Obscure Weak Green" or "Dark Dull Orange" or "Violet Violet Blue" — often just identified by their three-letter initials (e.g., OWG, DDO, VVB). They were listed as being "VACCC colors", although they all corresponded to web-safe RGB or hex colors. Does anyone know what this is all about?
 * It apparently stands for "VisiBone Anglo-Centric Color Codes for Graphics", but I have no idea what that means. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 05:56, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This might be a starting point. --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  08:24, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Monthly Prize Draw
Tried for several days to enter for the monthly drawing on www.gems.tv/myviews and www.rockstv.com/myviews and neither are in service. This page needs to be fixed or tell me another way to enter the drawing? Please respond.

four tildes — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denisedodson (talk • contribs) 12:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmm. You'd be better talking to people who are connected with either of the websites you've mentioned, rather than talking to the wikipedia reference desk, which has never heard of the two websites in question. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:30, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * When you sign, you need to type 4 actual tildes (that's 4 of this symbol: ~), not the words "four tildes". --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  12:41, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Although Jack it's more funny when they don't! :D Made me giggle a little anyways! four tildes... I mean  gaz hiley  14:47, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Glad you found it tildelating. :-) StuRat (talk) 23:24, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Neither my mother nor I can whistle, and I have tried for years. My father can do so and has done so without effort since childhood.  My nephews are accomplished whistlers since 4 or 5 y/o and were never taught or prompted.  Chimps and other apes have very poor control of their mouths.  This is clearly a combination of both genetic ability and effort.  See origin of speech and tongue rolling for a start. μηδείς (talk) 21:34, 15 August 2012 (UTC)  was wondering where the hell that went!μηδείς (talk) 22:47, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I strongly suspect this was intended for the thread below, Medeis. --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  22:17, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * When I see a comment obviously misplaced like that, I feel free to move it. StuRat (talk) 23:13, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, exactly, I came within a micron of saying "feel free to move such comments" in my prior response to Jack, but did not given the raw feelings it might aggravate in even further removed parties. I myself am not so delicate as to object. μηδείς (talk) 23:22, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Glad to hear it. When I previously moved and fixed the indentation on a misplaced comment of yours on the talk page, I seem to recall you getting angry. StuRat (talk) 23:27, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * That still stands. If I answer the wrong thread, feel free to fix it.  Leave my indentations alone. μηδείς (talk) 00:37, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * But I think you also objected to me moving it, then. As for misindenting, that also makes it look like you are responding to somebody else. StuRat (talk) 01:25, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I labor over my indentations. Not, unfortunately, having added the example we're thinking of to my list of reasons to have you banned as a hated troll, I can't recall.  We'll have to leave it moot.  In any case, wrong thread is hardly open to misinterpretation. μηδείς (talk) 02:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I can't understand your 2nd sentence. As for trying to indent correctly, you don't do a very good job of it, I'm afraid.  Twelve minutes after your post above, you indented from my post at the Science Desk, when you clearly weren't replying to me: . StuRat (talk) 04:39, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Some folks are complete slaves to proper indentation, others are only indentioned servants. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Argh. I sure hope that pun wasn't indentional. StuRat (talk) 03:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It's no laughing matter. Many times here we've seen how lack of attention to proper indenting protocols can cause various unindented consequences.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  08:35, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

human tongue,
I am now 66 years of age and found when I was 7,that when I stick out my tongue and without touching it by hand can bend the edges down like an inverted U.I have never found anyone in all this years that can do that.Please comment. Piet — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.145.77.9 (talk) 12:34, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * You mean rolling your tongue, but upside down? There is no mention of it in that article. While it is commonly believed that tongue rolling is genetic, there is no evidence of that. It seems more likely to just be a skill you can learn like any other. It wouldn't surprise me if the same is true of doing it upside down, but just that fewer people learn to do it. --Tango (talk) 12:41, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * how many of you are now staring at the screen while trying to bend your tongue downwards at the sides! I just found myself instantly doing trying it! gaz hiley  14:53, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I cannot believe that tongue rolling is just something people learn. I know a family where they can all do it instantly and effortlessly, without sitting around and gradually learning how, whether children or old people, while no amount of practice has given me any ability to do it at all. Textbooks commonly state that the ability is genetically based: ., . Sturtevant says it is polygenic and modifiable by learning.. 30% are still left unable to do it. Edison (talk) 14:53, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Textbooks are commonly wrong... --Tango (talk) 22:04, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * So, you must have some citable evidence to show why you believe those textbook claims are without foundation. Care to share?  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  22:41, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you read the article I linked to? It cites a source for the claim. --Tango (talk) 11:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks. --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  12:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Neither my mother nor I can whistle, and I have tried for years. My father can do so, if not expertly, and has done so without effort since childhood.  My sistersons are accomplished whistlers of tunes since 4 or 5 y/o, and were never taught or prompted.  Chimps and other apes have very poor control of their mouths.  This is clearly a combination of both genetic ability and effort.  See origin of speech and tongue rolling for a start. μηδείς (talk) 21:34, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Just a small correction needed here, chimps and many other apes usually have far greater control over their lips than humans, they often use their lips where we would use fine motor control of finger and thumb. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.191.178.117 (talk) 08:04, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that there is considerable variability in placement of facial muscles and/or nerves. I, for example, can raise the right side of my upper lip, or both sides together, but not the left side alone.  This, along with all the variability in tongue control, is in contrast with the more important muscles.  For example, if I could only lift my right leg or both together, but never the left alone, I wouldn't be able to walk very well.  Presumably, if my ancestors had this condition, they would have been less likely to pass it on, while not being able to lift the left side of your lip alone makes little difference to survival, so this gene is passed on freely. StuRat (talk) 23:10, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * We're in a post-Olympic and pre-US presidential election mood right now, so "I can't ..." is not supposed to be on our mental menu, Stu. I've always been able to raise both my eyebrows together, but there was a time when I would have said I could not raise either one of them independently.  Then I started watching old British movies where being supercilious was the sine qua non (Dennis Price was a particular exemplar).  So I trained my muscles to raise only one eyebrow at a time, and now I'm a regular entrant in the World Individual Eyebrow-Raising Championships.  I like to think of old British B&W movies as "Viagra for Single Eyebrows".  :) --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  00:25, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm sure you've managed to raise a few eyebrows in your time. StuRat (talk) 01:27, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't know, Stu. You'd have to ask my fawning admirers.  I, naturally, remain haughtily indifferent to all such things.  :)  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  03:27, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Non-refund credit transaction to a payment card account
I am trying to close a bank account in a different eurozone country from my current domicile. I have a valid debit card for the account but the balance is overdrawn by about €10. So I need to transfer €10 into the account to be able close it. I guess I will do this by SWIFT payment even though it will cost about €4 in fees, ie 40% of the balance. But if it was to a non-euro country it would be €25 for an IBAN transfer, which would really have annoyed me. So I got to thinking: is there a cheaper way? Something like this:
 * Merchants will credit your debit card account as a refund if you undo a purchase which was paid by that debit card: I buy a book, merchant swipes card and debits my account by €25; hours later, with buyer's remorse, I return the book in mint condition with proof of purchase, merchant swipes card and credits my account with €25. Is it possible to use the same system to do a non-refund credit? In theory for my above case, I could get a friendly merchant to fake a refund; I hand over €10 cash and my card; they put the cash in the till, swipe my card and credit the €10 to my account. One problem is that the merchant incurs a cost from the card provider for each transaction. So let's say I give him €11, he credits my account with €10 and the other €1 pays his fees to the card company; I've still saved €24 compared to the cost of an IBAN.

A serious objection to the above is that it is fraudulent and presumably illegal; that's not why merchants have EFTPOS connections to payment companies. But what about a company like Western Union? Is this a service they actually provide or potentially could? Or is there a legal requirement (e.g. for money-laundering prevention) to tie each payment card transaction to an exchange of goods and services, rather than merely moving money around? jnestorius(talk) 14:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Contact the bank to see what your options are. (Or Western Union...) This seems like too much of a request for legal advice for this page. I will say that I think it would be silly to risk the possibility of breaking the law for such a small amount. --Onorem♠Dil 15:52, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ask a friend that is in that country (if you have a bank account there, I assume you have some friends too) to walk into the bank with €10 and your account details and pay it in. Anyone should be able to pay money into an account. You can pay them back later. --Tango (talk) 22:09, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Can't you just write yourself a cheque? I've written myself a cheque to move money from one account to another several times, without issue - it's slower than SWIFT/CHIPS or IBAN, but (at least in my case) there was no fee (GBP->GBP). I've written myself a USD check and deposited it in a GBP account (for which there was a fee, but less than the SWIFT fee). I don't know about EUR->EUR, but that surely has to work. And one can post a cheque (in the good old paper mail) to one's remote bank, if one can't get to a local branch. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 22:37, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * In my experience eurozone banks change all sorts of fees, some just for having the account; so maybe they charge an admin fee for closing an account. It might be easier to pay in more than needed, get them to close the account and send you the closing balance by cheque.  One stumbling block is that they might insist on a valid id to close the account.
 * When it comes to international transfers, I have found a fixed fee SEPA transfer cheaper to use than other methods. However, I transfer a lot more than €10 at a time and not all retail banks support that payment method yet.  When I was looking into this a couple of years ago, I too considered Western Union but found their fee structure way too expensive.  That said, today they have an offer... see this Western Union advert (it seems to be a valid offer across some eurozone countries).  Astronaut (talk) 11:07, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Harold Halma
What does Harold Halma refer to, in this photo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Harold_Halma_photograph_of_Capote.jpg ? The photographer? 117.226.210.176 (talk) 15:39, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yup. A search on his name brings back stories about the photo in question. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Funny. I can't find anything about the man. The photograph's of Truman Capote. But there's no article anywhere about any Harold Halma. Why's it so famous? 117.226.210.176 (talk) 15:44, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * See Other Voices, Other Rooms (novel). Presumably the photographer is not very notable other than for this one photo. jnestorius(talk) 16:07, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * On eBay, you can by a 1957 Bell Telephone advertisement by Harold Halma; I also found this 1957 Ford advert, this 1960 Ansco Anscochrome Film Ad and this 1965 deBeers Diamons ad by him, so he seems to have had a long career as a commercial photographer. Alansplodge (talk) 17:01, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * According to Schoenberg's New World: The American Years By Sabine Feisst, Harold Halma started out as a musician; " Harold Halma served as Schoenberg's unofficial personal assistants in the early 1940s... Halma was an excellent student in Schoenberg's 1941-1942 classes... During Schoenberg's leave of absence from December 21 1942 to January 4 1943, Halma taught his 82 students in 'Form and Analysis', 'Advanced Counterpoint' and 'Composition and Special Studies'. But in the summer of 1943, he left for New York City and turned to professional photography. Having made beautiful photographs of Schoenberg, he became famous for his 1947 portrait of Truman Capote..." There's a picture of Schoenberg with Halma here. Alansplodge (talk) 17:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Problem with viewing the Computing Reference Desk at work
This has been happening consistently for several days now. When I browse the Wikipedia Reference Desks at work, the Computing desk takes minutes to load, and then loads without any CSS information, just the plain HTML. Other desks, such as the Miscellaneous and Language desks, work OK. At home, the Computing desk also works fully OK. I use Microsoft Windows 7 at work (I have to, it's the company's development platform) but Fedora 14 Linux at home. I use Mozilla Firefox at both places. It can't be a bandwidth problem - the Internet connection at work is faster than my own connection at home. What could be causing this? J I P &#124; Talk 21:15, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * We don't fix things here at this page directly. You should try the WP Help Desk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk. μηδείς (talk) 21:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * You might try a reboot, if you haven't already. Beyond that, perhaps you need to purge the page, cookies, etc., but this can have other consequences. StuRat (talk) 00:12, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Paul Ryan, Royal Dano
Is US politician Paul Ryan related to actor Royal Dano? There seems to be a remarkable facial resemblance in some photos. Edison (talk) 23:10, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The comparison I've heard is Eddie Munster, though that might be a stretch. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:08, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The same occurred to me, and Mitt looks like Herman, with the current president a certain breakfast cereal 'spokesmonster'. μηδείς (talk) 01:56, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Count Chocula ? Maybe not, since, despite his name, he's not chocolate colored. StuRat (talk) 04:34, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * More at the long head and the ears, although not pointed, obviously. μηδείς (talk) 17:31, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I did some genealogical research on Dano and Ryan, and note some English and Irish ancestry in both, but no clear ancestral link popped out. There seems to be in common the "widows peak." prominent cheekbones, and the look of the eyes. It's amazing how the genealogists always find that competing presidential candidates are 6th cousins or some such, though. Edison (talk) 12:09, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Not really. Just about everybody is 6th cousins to somebody famous.  I, for example, am distantly related to the Wright brothers. StuRat (talk) 14:47, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Both of them? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:13, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Cousin Stu! Me, too.  :)  69.62.243.48 (talk) 22:32, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Really ? Cool. StuRat (talk) 22:46, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I can beat that. Queen Elizabeth II is my second cousin's great-grandfather's son-in-law's uncle's relative's father-in-law's great-great-great-great-grandfather's 1st cousin 9 times removed.  Did someone mention "distantly related"?  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  09:12, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * And not only that, you're on the opposite side of the world. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:13, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, but your family always stays in your heart. She seems to have done quite well for herself, but I bet she still hankers to hang out with cousin Jack.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  07:49, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You bet. A Queen and a Jack - just a couple of cards. :) "Her Majesty's a pretty nice girl... etc. etc." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:54, 20 August 2012 (UTC)