Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2012 August 26

= August 26 =

Jolly Sower?
We have the Grim Reaper to announce or carry out death. Does tradition have anything like a "Jolly Sower", or even a "Grim Sower", to foretell pregnancy? Pokajanje &#124; Talk 02:18, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Can't say for certain, but you'd probably do well to start looking through the rather extensive List of fertility deities. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:28, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * See Triple Goddess (Neopaganism), Fertility goddess, Virgin Mary, Saint Anne, Hera, Juno, Easter bunny, among others. μηδείς (talk) 03:37, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * His arch-enemy, the Stork Deliverer, using his mighty Beak of Birth to engage in swordplay with the Scythe of Doom. If Marvel or DC come calling, you know where to send them. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:44, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That deserves a star! μηδείς (talk) 04:27, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * In as much as TGR decides on death (rather than just being a psychopomp, a functionary), Clotho decides on who gets born. 87.114.8.36 (talk) 03:18, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

what is the largest monetary judgment ever?
There is a recent judgment in california court of $1 Billion USD for Apple against Samsung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates#.5BReady.5D_Apple_vs_Samsung_trial)  Is this the largest monetary judgment ever? If not, what judgments outrank it? μηδείς (talk) 03:25, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * See Microsoft litigation for some larger awards. Rmhermen (talk) 03:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The Exxon Valdez oil spill initially resulted in $5 billion in punitive damages and $287 million in actual, but has been whittled down. Not a judgment, but the Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement says that four states settled for $35 billion states were to receive $206 billion over 25 years. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:56, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * A judge ordered Harley International Ltd to cough up $1.07 billion in the Bernie Madoff mess. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I meant to exclude the tobacco "settlements" as neither private nor individual. I am curious what the actual Exxon Valdez payout has been.  And there was also the BP gulf settlement, no?  But again, I am looking for two private parties, not the jackboot thugs vs whomever. μηδείς (talk) 04:32, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * According to Deepwater Horizon explosion BP has settled with companies for $1.07 billion and $4 billion. Hut 8.5 09:34, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The Samsung case is an award, not a settlement, though?  Any chance there is an award in a case between two private plaintiffs of that size? Do we have a list?μηδείς (talk) 15:34, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * A few I found on Google:
 * Exxon Mobil ordered to pay $1.5 billion
 * BP ordered to pay the equivalent of $3 billion by a Russian court
 * $6 billion awarded to 9/11 victims
 * Oral contract has an example of a $11.1 billion award
 * claims the largest ever award is $150 billion to the family of someone with horrific burn injuries (though they "don't expect to collect any")
 * Hut 8.5 16:42, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

the case in the oral contract link is the kind I was looking for, thanks. μηδείς (talk) 18:25, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * On the oral contract case, see also here. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:40, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Alaska in WWII
I know that part of the Aleutian Islands in Alaska were taken by the Japanese in WWII. I do not know much about this topic, so if you could, please share some information so that I can expand my knowledge. Thank you. Eskimopie300 (talk) 03:36, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Aleutian Islands Campaign Rmhermen (talk) 03:43, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, a good place to start would be our Aleutian Islands Campaign article, which provides links to further material, both on Wikipedia and elsewhere. An often-forgotten part of the Pacific war that probably had far more strategic significance than is generally realised. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

College Degree Question
I have a question, but let me use an example to ask it: Besse Cooper got her degree from a teacher training school which later became East Tennessee State University. Would her degree now be considered a university degree (from that university) despite the fact that it was only a teacher school (and thus with a much lower reputation) at the time that she got her degree? Futurist110 (talk) 06:52, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * A degree depends on the accreditation of the school granting it. Accreditation is not retroactive. μηδείς (talk) 07:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It depends. I got my degree in 1984 from what was at the time called the Canberra College of Advanced Education.  About 5 years later it became the University of Canberra (U Can).  I have ever since (that's over 22 years) referred to my qualification as being from U Can, nobody has ever questioned this, and it would be absurd to do so, now.  Maybe in a court of law it would be necessary to be pedantic about the precise institution that awarded my degree, but for all ordinary purposes this is not necessary.  -- ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  08:18, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * In the UK, in 1992, all the polytechnics became universities. It is now fairly common for people that went to them when they were polytechnics to refer to them by their new name. Their degree qualification is no different, although technically it was awarded by the Council for National Academic Awards, rather than the institution itself (now they are universities, they award their own degrees). --Tango (talk) 11:46, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

This is certainly not the case in the US, a name change is not the same as a change in accreditation. There is no positive indication in the Polytechnic (UK) article that degrees issued by the Council for National Academic Awards became university degrees after 1992. I don't normally happen to tell people which college of my undergrad University I was issued my bachelor's from, but that doesn't change the information on the transcript if they request it, even though there have been changes in school policy since I got that degree. μηδείς (talk) 22:01, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The CNAA awarded degrees. The term "university degree" doesn't carry any special meaning, other than as a description of a degree. --Tango (talk) 00:04, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Correct, but saying you had a degree from X University on your resume when you had a diploma from the CNAA for a course of classes at X Polytechnic would be grounds for dismissal in the US--assuming they wanted an excuse to fire you. This is a matter of contention at Rowan University, formerly Glassboro State College which is planning to merge with Rutgers–Camden. People with degrees from Glassboro can't say they have degrees from Rowan University and people at Rutgers, even the Camden branch, do not want to have degrees that say Rowan University.  μηδείς (talk) 02:11, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The CNAA didn't just award diplomas, they awarded actual degrees that are no different to the degrees awarded universities (other than the name of the institution on the certificate). I didn't say people write it wrong on their resumes, anyway (although I expect some do). I meant they refer to them that way in casual conversation. It's just a name, though. The polytechnics didn't become any more prestigious when they were renamed universities. I don't know if it has ever been tested in court, but I can't see many people caring about getting the name wrong like that - you can tell from the dates if you really want to know what it was called when they went there. --Tango (talk) 20:54, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * In the U.S. the name of the school doesn't have any official meaning at all. The accredation does.  But schools which change names don't necessarily change any sort of status.  "Four year college or university" is a catch-all term, but there is no functional difference between the names.  Massachusetts Institute of Technology and the University of North Carolina and Dartmouth College are all equivalently accredited degree granting institutions, and tradition and reputation aside, the degrees they grant should carry the exact same weight even though one is an Institute, one is a University, and one is a College.  -- Jayron  32  02:30, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Where is this place please
(probably in UK). Kittybrewster  &#9742;  13:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It's somewhere in the north of Paris, since that's the Basilica of Sacre-Coeur in the background. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:48, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmm, actually it must be in the west of Paris. Isn't that a view from the Eiffel Tower? Maybe not from the top though...you can see Passerelle Debilly, Pont Alexandre III, Le Grand Palais, the Louvre and the Tuileries, among other things. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:57, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Certainly looks like it has been taken from the Eiffel Tower the red building is the Musée du quai Branly. MilborneOne (talk) 14:03, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  14:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

How do hackers cover their tracks?
I've got some idea of the various techniques hackers use to steal people's bank details etc. What I don't understand is how they can actually steal their money without getting caught. Obviously they cant simply transfer the money straight into their account. They cant order something with the persons details and have it sent to their house. So how do they do it? --178.208.199.18 (talk) 19:23, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I kinda get the impression that a lot of those Nigerian prince scams are part of the process of clearing that stuff up, get someone else to cash the checks. Bank accounts in the Cayman islands for shell corporations run by shell corporations run by dummy corporations is another means of covering their tracks.  Alternately, sell the bank info to people who don't realize you have to cover your tracks.  Ian.thomson (talk) 19:30, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * See money mule for people who fall for the prince thing. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 19:34, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * See money laundering. --Tango (talk) 19:32, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Depending on the scam... It's also possible to get a blank ATM card and imprint it with the target's banking details. Go to a local ATM.  Not worry about the couple of dollars that a third party bank will charge for an ATM transaction.  And withdraw any money left in the account after those fees.  Dismas |(talk) 00:23, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * We think of the financial system as being full of things to prevent this sort of fraud, but it's only true up to a point. One anecdote: a few years ago, someone used a check to buy food and electronics from CostCo. They had my checking account number printed on the bottom of the check. They didn't have the same name as me, they didn't fake any signature of mine. Just the correct account and routing number. Who knows where they got those from — maybe they just picked the account number at random? And you know what? My bank happily gave them the entire contents of my account. I had to call the bank, file all sorts of paperwork, and the bank eventually refunded me the stolen money after concluding that it would be indeed strange for me to be bankrupting myself at a CostCo on the other side of the country from where I lived. Good on them. Did they catch the guy? I really doubt it — all they had to go on was a bad check (with probably a fake name on it), and maybe security camera footage. That's how porous the financial system can be, for all of the apparent security checks that exist. Maybe at some point down the line the guy will do it once too many times and get caught. But I doubt anyone is spending a lot of time on it.
 * A few years ago there was a description in a New York Times magazine article of how one particular hacker used ATM cards and stolen PINS — it's the same as what Dismas describes. Show up to the ATM machines just before midnight, "cash out" with the daily withdraw limit, then wait until after midnight, do it again. Then get scarce. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:47, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Beyond what the above answers have mentioned, it's not uncommon those getting the money don't live in the country they money is coming from, making getting it back or pursuing them difficult even if they did just transfer it directly in to their accounts. Of course transferring money via an international transfer directly to some random Russian bank account is likely to raise red flags if it's even possible, so they will likely transfer them to some other local bank account before they (start to) transfer to their bank account. These may include using innocent third parties, I know of someone offered a job via a student job website which was supposed to be helping a foreigner with their business by accepting money for them, but they realised something was fishy and as it turned out, it was phisers trying to get them to accept money fron hacked bank accounts and transfer it onwards. (This was a while back, 2004, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's still one method of getting the money out although possibly systems are in place to make it less effective.) Edit: See Finlay McWalter already linked to our article on this. Nil Einne (talk) 07:53, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

SINGER JANE MORGAN
I am trying to reach the subject for 2 reasons:

First, she sang "In Jerusalem," in English, but I can't find it on the Internet.

Second, she performed with my father, some years ago, in the Catskills, and I wanted to determine whether she recalled meeting him.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.114.188.220 (talk) 22:23, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia's article on Jane Morgan gives some information on where she currently lives, which might help you track her down. Perhaps if you wrote to a local newspaper in Kennebunkport, Maine, where according to the article she owns a farm, they might be able to help. --Nicknack009 (talk) 16:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Is mis-labeled Great Value "wheat" bread sold by WalMart?
In all other breads sold in large grocery stores, either labeled as "Whole Weat" or simply "Wheat" bread, the consistancy and "texture" is sharply different from "white" bread -- in all stores. However, one slice from a Walmart's "Wheat Bread" loaf, gives the identically same experience as a slice of Walmart's white bread. The color is artifically added, one could presume, because years of expperience with artificial coloring mixed into white dough would produce exactly the same shade as Walmart's "Wheat Bread," and this should be just as evident to any experienced shopper as it is to any scientifically trained inspector. Two possibilities are evident -- that the Arkansas headquarters of WalMart is totally unaware that one or more of the bakeries is "shaving" costs on the production end, or possibly, that someone on the delivery section is siphoning money, convinced he or she is getting away with fraud. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.255.28.254 (talk) 22:39, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Cheaper products, especially "store brands", are known to be of inferior quality. There's also a big controversy over the labeling of breads, such as "wheat" bread, and many brands, not just the Walmart Store brand, are known for being basically what you describe: white bread with a bit of flavoring and coloring, and are not nutritionally distinct.  Most sources recommend, if you want something nutritionally better than white bread, that you seek out the more expensive "whole grain" breads, labeling laws usually require that breads labeled things like "100% whole grain" need to be that.  A google search should turn up a wealth of information about breads, and can confirm what I have said here. -- Jayron  32  22:46, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Or read the label. Is the number of grams of fiber higher than the rest ?  In the first ingredient actually while wheat ?  What other nasties have they added ? StuRat (talk) 02:46, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Your bread sounds like an instance of angel dusting. I suspect that it did contain a very small portion of whole wheat, with the rest being white flour. StuRat (talk) 02:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * White flour ... daily double. It's made from ...--Wehwalt (talk) 11:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Right, it's wheat with all the healthy parts removed, something like corn syrup being corn with all the healthy bits taken out. StuRat (talk) 20:24, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The ingredient list is available online. It does show whole wheat flour, but not very much -- less than the quantity of yeast, which would typically be a tablespoon or so for a loaf. Looie496 (talk) 16:27, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Although it also contains wheat bran, so, combined with whole wheat, they may total more than the yeast. But, in any case, it's a rather small percentage, I agree. StuRat (talk) 20:27, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * But it is wheat bread. It's not potato bread, it's not rye bread, it's wheat bread.  Your "White bread" is also wheat bread, and could probably be sold as such.  "Whole Wheat" does have a legally-defined meaning with regards to foods, but the Walmart "wheat bread" probably doesn't call itself "whole wheat". Buddy431 (talk) 00:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but idiomatically "wheat bread" in the U.S. refers solely to a light brown bread. Quality and ingredients differ greatly, but in the U.S. wheat bread unambiguously and always refers to a different product than white bread does, even if they are both technically made of wheat flour.  Arguing that this shouldn't be so is a silly thing since it is the way it is.  You aren't going to undo something like that with logic and reason.  Wheat bread is light brown and slightly nuttier in flavor than white bread.  Those are just the products as the customers expect them.  -- Jayron  32  01:08, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

What's the rule/pattern?
At this test, whose questions are all progressive matrices, If you get 5 or less right (or do 5 or less and then submit, for that matter), your score is 79, but if you get 6 right, your score jumps to 81. So I do 5 of the first easy ones and try each of the options for the very last one to see when my score jumps to 81 because I'm curious which of the options for problem #39 is the right answer. The answer for #39 is apparently 'B'. Why? What is the rule/pattern for that one? Peter Michner (talk) 22:48, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Challenging. The only help I can provide is that if you number them from 1 to 9 (top-to-bottom, left-to-right) then #3 rotated 90 degrees counter-clockwise = #4, and #6 likewise = #7. The Masked Booby (talk) 05:32, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Can I retrieve my "astonishingly high" test score from a 1962 U.S. Military Induction center?
In the Spring of 1962, I attempted to volunteer for the Army, because I was classified 1A, and could not enroll in college, get any kind of loan, rent a decent apartment, or apply for a decent job, due to the Viet Nam War. Seated in my undershorts with over 300 other draftees (I changed my mind about volunteering because I was promised "anywhere" in the world where I wanted to go, to avoid combat), my name was yelled and an officer in a medical coat told me to "Get on that scale." Every eye in the ;place saw my "Thank you Jesus" expression when he said "Go home, we don't need anybody your size." I only weighed 115pounds. Now, I want to use that test score to apply for membership in MENSA. That was before computers. Are those records lost, or is it possibly a military archives is somewhere in the Midwest? I was born in Detroit, Michigan, but that test was in a huge building in Chicago's Loop, on Canal Street. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.255.28.254 (talk) 23:13, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The American Mensa Qualifying Score FAQ gives details of where to get old military test records, see here. It might be easier to just take another test, though. See here for details of how to take their standard admission test. I do wonder if not thinking to check the FAQ shouldn't disqualify you, though! --Tango (talk) 00:02, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * For information on how a person can obtain his or her US military service record from the National Archives, see here. I don't know whether records of people who are declined for induction are included&mdash;I suspect not&mdash;but they are the people whom you would ask. (I agree that it would probably be easier to take a new MENSA test than to pursue this avenue, however.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:05, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Believe me, getting into the Mensa isn't that difficult. There are many tests that will get you into it, just pick one you feel comfortable with and train to perform well in it. OsmanRF34 (talk) 00:09, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Who is truly wise&mdash;he who is granted a Mensa membership card, or he who figured out that he could charge $63 per year to sell Mensa membership cards? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:41, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * What's this about taking a new MENSA test? Last I heard, a person has exactly one chance to gain membership.  If they fail the test, they can never reapply.  Have the rules changed?  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  03:23, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * As there appears to be a fee to join, once you've passed the test, it makes good economic sense to allow retries. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:45, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * From Mensa International: "In some national groups, a person may take a Mensa offered test only once, although one may later submit an application with results from a different qualifying test."Clarityfiend (talk) 04:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The OP hasn't taken a Mensa test before. He took an army induction test, which Mensa (probably, depending on exactly what test it was) accept as a qualifying test. Mensa don't have a rule that you aren't allowed to take the Mensa test if you have ever taken an IQ test or similar before at any time in your life for any purpose. That would be a pretty ridiculous rule. --Tango (talk) 20:47, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. I was just responding to New York Brad's comment.  I only asked because back in about 1975 I thought I was interested in getting into Mensa and sat their test.  I was told I scored very highly, but not quite highly enough.  I was also told that that was my one and only chance of ever getting in, I would never be permitted to sit the test again, and the door was now permanently shut.  It was as black and white as that.  There was no mention of my being able to use any other qualifying tests.  Irony is that now I couldn't care less about Mensa membership.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  21:34, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * TenOfAllTrades sums up my position well. The founder of Mensa is the smart guy, those who join for the doubtful benefit of being able to boast of their membership (there are few others) are the fools.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:10, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't believe that's why most people join Mensa. I think the main reason is social, it is particular useful if they want a bit of intelligent company and they'd only meet Beavis and Butt-head clones otherwise. Dmcq (talk) 22:39, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Exactly so, in my case. I joined when I was about 18, to meet people I wanted to talk to. Once I went to University, there were plenty of these, and I let my Mensa membership lapse. --ColinFine (talk) 22:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I wonder, how many of the Mensanese population are actually in positions of power, vs. those who are perhaps "too smart for their own good." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:13, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What, no List of Mensans on Wikipedia? Ha, I knew it'd be a blue link. 67.163.109.173 (talk) 00:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)