Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2012 December 25

= December 25 =

Canada Ottawa region name change
Residing in Canada before the millenium change, I recall some press mentions [ Globe & Mail ] of a " National or Federal District " type of classification/re-organization for the Ottawa-Hull area, presumably to follow the concept of " the District of Columbia [ D.C.] USA.

In reading the article on Ottawa I see no mention of this. Did this proposal die and, if so, why ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steve8rox (talk • contribs) 00:02, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's mentioned in National Capital Region (Canada), with no sources. --jpgordon:==( o ) 17:21, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

"Happy Holidays!"
Is this greeting common outside of the United States? I'm asking this since Hanukkah doesn't seem to be that mainstream in most countries (but then again, so is Judaism). Kwanzaa isn't also celebrated outside the US, and if I recall correctly is virtually unheard of in Africa (but then again, it was founded by an African-American). But is the greeting common only in the United States, or it is also used in countries like Canada or the United Kingdom? And if anyone's asking, I've read the article on it, but gives no mention of its use outside of the United States. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:33, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * We're aware of it here in Australia, from our exposure to American movies/TV etc, but I've never heard an Australian use the expression. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  12:13, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Similarly, here in the UK we've heard Americans use it, but I've never heard someone local say it. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 12:15, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Influence from the US has cost Singaporeans here to act like Americans and I have heard this term being used innumerable times this year. Bonkers The Clown  (Nonsensical Babble) 12:39, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * UK here, we are familiar with the term but we don't like using it.--TammyMoet (talk) 12:56, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, we understand the greeting when used by our American friends, but would never use it ourselves.   D b f i r s   15:09, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Who exactly is "we" here? Do you two presume to speak for the entire population of the United Kingdom?   If not, I suggest you keep your wild, borderline offensive generalizations to yourselves. --Viennese Waltz 21:40, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's the Christmas spirit. Seems gemütlichkeit is wearing a tad thin these days.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  22:52, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes we do, just as much as other respondents (and the OP) presume to speak for all their countrymen (and women). I am really at a loss as to how what I said could possibly be seen as "borderline offensive". There has been such a (contrived) backlash to the whole "Winterval" thing recently in the UK that the thing to do is to use the specific greeting rather than the generic: "Blessed Eid" or "Merry Christmas" rather than "Happy Holidays". Really, we don't use it. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:20, 26 December 2012 (UTC) Oh and the phrase we use on cards over here tends to be "Season's Greetings". I have never seen a card with "Happy Holidays" on it over here. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:21, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Should perhaps clarify that in the UK, the word "holidays" basically means what Americans mean when they say "vacation". We go to Spain on our summer holidays. It doesn't have the meaning of specifically mid-winter celebrations that it does in the States. Hence, we don't say "happy holidays" at Christmas. --Nicknack009 (talk) 11:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I must admit that I was rather surprised at VW's "bite", though I can just about see that my use of "American friends" might be considered patronising. I used that expression because the only "Happy Holiday" cards we receive at this time of year are from our (genuine) friends in America.  I've never seen "Happy Holiday" cards on sale here in the UK, though I expect someone will be able to find them in a specialist card shop.  The majority of cards here seem to have some variant of "Happy Christmas", though "Season's Greetings" is also common in print (but much less common in speech).  There may be some regions of the UK where this is not the case.  If so, perhaps VW can identify them,    D b f i r s   08:10, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

It's rarely actually used by real Americans in spontaneous conversation. It's only corporate concerns that someone might be Jewish or a Marxist Black Nationalist that drives the usage in commercials and by salespeople whose greetings are scripted. I am an atheist with Jewish ancestry and a Roman Catholic upbringing, and I say Merry Christmas to everyone, including Hindus and Muslims, and add in Happy Hanukah if I know they are Jewish. Hristos Rozhdajetsja! Szczastliwyj Nowyj Rok! μηδείς (talk) 20:48, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * -- your own experience does not indicate "rarely used"; your experience indicates "I've rarely heard it used". My experience is rather the opposite; it's interchangeable with any of the other greetings -- and by "real Americans". And anyone who strongly cares which salutation is used is missing the entire point of well-wishing; it's like sneezing and being bothered if someone automatically says "God bless you". --jpgordon:==( o ) 21:12, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Not just rarely used. An American said Happy Holidays to me yesterday. Duoduoduo (talk) 21:25, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * At the very least, you can hear it on Christmas muzak: "Happy Holidays" by Irving Berlin, who was Jewish, and wrote the song for Holiday Inn, which also featured the song "White Christmas". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:15, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, and were those people who wished you "happy holidays" people who knew you, or store clerks? μηδείς (talk) 01:20, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Passerby on the sidewalk. Duoduoduo (talk) 02:16, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Not one of the non-Christians I know is offended by well-intentioned people wishing them a Happy Christmas. As Chanukah this year finished well before Christmas (and started 8 days even before that), it's a bit nonsensical. --Dweller (talk) 6:03 pm, Yesterday (UTC−5)
 * None of the non-Christians I know are offended by Merry Christmas, and none of the Christians I like are offended by Happy Holidays (though I enjoy bringing up Advent, Epiphany (holiday), Boxing day, Twelfth Night (holiday), and the Feast of the Innocents to the ones who are offended... Are those not Christian holidays? Should I not wish fellow Christians to have a happy day on those days as well?). Ian.thomson (talk) 6:14 pm, Yesterday (UTC−5)
 * I'm a tolerent sort of chap but that damned Coca-Cola advert "Holidays are coming, Holdays are coming..." really annoys me every time I hear it. Especially the bit where the boy rushes to ring the church bells, to herald the arrival of the bloody Coke lorry. Grrr... Sorry, rant over. Alansplodge (talk) 01:23, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If you think that's offensive, I'm guessing you're too young to remember when Santa Claus was seen carrying cartoons of cigarettes in his pack. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:30, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

You can always wish someone Jewish a "freyliche nitl", according to the Britannica World Language Dictionary. הסרפד (Hasirpad) [formerly Ratz...bo] 01:26, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't even know what this feared "offence" might be about. The Jewish people I've known have been indistinguishable from (nominal) Christians in their involvement in the Christmas season, by (a) Christmas merry-making of all kinds, including gift-buying and giving, wishing all and sundry "Merry Christmas" (including their fellow Jews), festive family get-togethers, Christmas cards, trees, Santas, the whole deal; and (b) not going anywhere near a church the entire time.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  04:26, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. There were seasonal holiday long before there was any such thing as Christianity. Or Judaism, for that matter. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:32, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * My Druid friend wished me merry Christmas yesterday. I'm pretty sure she knows I'm not much of a Christian. I returned the greeting. HiLo48 (talk) 04:50, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * People say "Happy Holidays" in Canada too, which upsets the sort of people who would get upset about that sort of thing. Adam Bishop (talk) 17:57, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The United States has a larger Jewish community than any country but Israel, and many Jewish people in the United States feel that in a nominally secular country such as this, perhaps especially considering their size and importance as a community, they should not be subject to an assumption that they celebrate a Christian holiday. I am American, and not Jewish, but I have Jewish friends who aren't happy to be wished a Merry Christmas.  To them, it feels like the majority imposing its customs on others.  If I know someone is Christian, I will say "Merry Christmas", but otherwise I tend to say "Happy Solstice", since everyone experiences the solstice, and I find "Happy Holidays" depressingly bland and generic.  Marco polo (talk) 18:00, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've known Jews who weren't too crazy about Christmas, for obvious reasons, and adding to that, their opinion that too big a deal was made of Hanukah as being the "Jewish Christmas". On the other hand, you have Jewish artists singing Christian songs, ranging from Barbra Streisand singing "Ave Maria" to Allan Sherman singing "The Twelve Days of Christmas" and then wishing the audience a Merry Christmas. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:48, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Not to mention the aforementioned Jewish composer Irving Berlin, who penned the best-selling Christmas song of all time, White Christmas. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  21:51, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that greeting is common in Hungary. We say "holidays" simply because it refers to both Christmas and New Year's Day, with many people taking days off between the two to have a nine day long vacation.  Even if you don't do that, Christmas and New Year are at least bank holidays so most businesses don't operate during them.  Whether you are a Christian and your beliefs about what you celebrate at that time don't come into this at all.  &#x2013; b_jonas 15:50, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

is 12p.m. noon or midnight?
As I want to book a flight online, I wonder if 12pm means noon or midnight on airline schedules so went to i/net to research.I was taught that 12.00a.m. is midday and 12.00p.m. is midnight. I have read your explanation & other forums, none of which addresses that there are 60mins in every hour & that the first minute of the first hour of the day is 00.01a.m. This then makes the 59th minute after that when it reaches the top of the clock part of the same meridiem, eg. 4.00p.m is the 59th minute after 3.01p.m. and therefore 12.00 midnight is 12.00p.m. being the 60th minute after 11.00p.m.or the 59th after 11.01p.m. What could be simpler than what I was taught? Noon is definitely 12.00a.m. & midnight is definitely 12.00p.m. Using the example above demonstates why.

Lyn. 26/12/12 @ 12.55a.m. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.30.25.78 (talk) 13:55, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I was taught that noon is 12.00pm. I cannot explain it with logic. HiLo48 (talk) 14:28, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

If you start from the OP's assumption that "the first minute of the first hour of the day is 00.01a.m.", then you come to his conclusion that noon is 12AM. But if you start from the assumption that the first minute of the first hour of the day is 00.00a.m. -- i.e., the midnight minute -- then you come to the opposite conclusion. Neither assumption is the logically necessary one (though I like the standard of 12PM=noon because then when my clock's minute hand is slightly to the right of vertical around noon we're in the PM). Duoduoduo (talk) 14:53, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, here's what I know. The p in pm means "after" and the a in am means "before". So... To be the most correct... The answer is neither 12 am nor 12 pm. It is 12 m. We do have a page which explains this. Bonkers The Clown  (Nonsensical Babble) 15:09, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What page? And where is 12 m used? HiLo48 (talk) 15:16, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * To avoid confusion, insurance companies, and other people to whom precision is important, avoid 12 a.m., 12 p.m. and 12m. (meridiem or midnight?) and use the 24-hour clock, or 11:59 and 12:01, or say 12 noon and 12 midnight. I've never understood why people continue to use such an ambiguous notation, but they do!    D b f i r s   15:18, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * When I was setting software contribution deadlines, I would usually set them to 23:59 to avoid exactly such ambiguities. (And because I got tired of answering "is that noon or midnight?") --jpgordon:==( o ) 17:02, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The only saving grace with using 12:00 on an airline schedule is the date. A time shown as "12:00 am" or "12:00 pm" could reasonably be at either noon or midnight, because conventions differ.  But a noon flight occurs on the same date as ones that leave an hour earlier and an hour later later.  Whereas, a midnight flight leaves on the same date as one an hour later, but on a different date from one an hour earlier (or possibly the other way around).  Hence, examination of flights on either side could help pin the exact time down.  However, any airline that is not aware that such terminology is deeply confusing and will create a lot of queries for their staff to answer, is probably not aware that 2+2=4, so I'd be extremely cautious about using their services.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:22, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I am closing this. The topic's been done to death in the archives and I don't see any new references above. μηδείς (talk) 20:40, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * See 12-hour_clock. StuRat (talk) 06:13, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Etymology aside, in real life, "12 pm" means noon, or at least that is how I see it used fairly consistently. For what it's worth, I live in Connecticut, USA, and I am basing my statement on real-life usage on shop signs, etc. Also, computers and other electronic devices seem to use/understand "12 pm" for noon and "12 am" for midnight. Now that I think about it, I rather suspect that this popular usage of "12 pm" for noon is due mainly to how electronic devices (computers, wristwatches, alarm clocks, cell phones) display the time. 75.27.150.160 (talk) 04:08, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. 12 p.m. as noon is conventional usage. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:02, 29 December 2012 (UTC)