Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2012 May 29

= May 29 =

Zuni Indian Reservation
The hyperlink to Painted Cliffs in the Zuni Indian Reservation article mistakenly route to a place in New Zealand. It should route to the Painted Cliffs of the Arizona- New Mexico border along the Puerco River parallel to Interstate 40. The cliffs are on the northwestern side of the indian reservation. I don't have the expertise about how to fix this situation. http://www.discoveringarizona.com/PaintedCliffs.html
 * I'm afraid we do not have an article on the paint cliffs in Arizona, I have removed the hyperlink and it should stay gone until such a page is created. Unique Ubiquitous (talk) 00:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Rev. B. Ward of Brightwell-cum-Sotwell
Can any user please supply me with biographical details of Rev. B. Ward who was Minister of the Church in Brightwell-cum-Sotwell, near Wallingford, Oxfordshire, England, during the 1950s. Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 09:55, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I assume you mean St Agatha's, a CoE parish, then what you need is someone with access to the paper version of Crockford's Clerical Directory 1950 or 1955 edition. A person of that name doesn't appear to be in their online version (the search is free, and recovers two B. Wards, but neither seems to be that parish - I think they only have a current and recently retired priests listed online). I checked my local library service and they don't have anything older than 1985. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 11:30, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, I'm not sure that the Rev. Ward in question was a practising priest. The OP asked a similar question at the village's homepage, which says (I'm not linking to it since it contains his email address): "We have been contacted by [the OP], who is writing a history of Carmel College, Mongewell. He was a pupil there in the 1950s, and remembers a Latin teacher called Rev. Ward, who he thinks lived in the Brightwell area. Does anyone have any memories of him they could share?"
 * I'm sure the OP knows this already, but Carmel College closed in 1997. I haven't been able to find any internet resources relating to the Oxfordshire-based Latin-teaching Rev. Ward, although this sort of thing isn't my speciality. Maybe someone else can help. Unfortunately, with the school being closed, there isn't a lot of information online. One possible lead is that the 'successor organisation' to the school seems to be the Yakar Educational Foundation (ref http://www.carmelcollege.org), founded by Jeremy Rosen. Apparently they have offices in Jerusalem and can be contacted through their (Hebrew) website, http://www.yakar.org. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 14:12, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

First, thank you to all those who have replied to my question. Since submitting my question earlier today, I have learned that Rev. B. Ward was the pastor at Brightwell-cum-Sotwell Free Church and not at St. Agatha's Church of England. Possibly this extra piece of information may help users answer my question. Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 15:09, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Mawdudi article
Why are Mawdudi's views about women not included in this article???? He believed in Muslim women being completely covered, even wearing gloves and face veils! Is this not an important part of the beliefs he held? He is highly influential even in this day and age, and therefore this is an important part of the subject matter which has been omitted. As a Muslim woman, this is insulting to me. You have been negligent in your portrayal of this man!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.236.142 (talk) 17:38, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * For ease of reference, the article is Abul Ala Maududi. Looie496 (talk) 17:42, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * If, 99.236.236.142, you can find some reliable sources for this information, please add the information to the article. Your comments on being insulted and negligence are silly and not welcome. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:44, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that it is appropriate to say to this woman that her comments are silly and unwelcome. That's unnecessarily antagonistic, since she evidently doesn't know how Wikipedia works.  Let me explain.  The content on Wikipedia is contributed by users. Anyone may add anything to (or delete anything from) an article.  If the added content is well sourced, other users are likely to leave the content in the article.  If content is added or deleted without good reason or without reference to reliable sources, other users are likely to reverse those actions.  Since there are thousands of active editors working on Wikipedia, it is unlikely that any of the editors contributing to this reference desk had anything to do with the article on Maududi, nor are they in any way responsible for it.  If any user finds the article lacking important information, it is really that user's responsibility to add the missing information, provided that the user can include references to reliable sources for that information.  Marco polo (talk) 19:30, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Umm, yes. I withdraw that and apologise. I misconstrued the "As a Muslim woman, this is insulting to me" to mean she was insulted by the absence in the article rather than the espoused policy. My bad. --Tagishsimon (talk)


 * Also, there is some criticism of his views on women in our article, such as his apparent belief that, in an ideal world, "women rarely venture outside their homes lest social discipline be disrupted". StuRat (talk) 20:14, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * May I say something about our alleged negligence and your insult, that builds on what Marco Polo said above? All Wikipedia articles grow and develop and improve over time.  That's the way the system works and there are no exceptions.  They don't start out in a perfect, finished state; no article ever gets to that stage anyway, because there's always something more that needs doing.  It's open to anyone at all to come here and improve an existing article or start a new one.  The sorts of things they work on will typically reflect their own areas of interest or expertise, which is a good thing, because it means we have people who care about the subject taking an interest in seeing the article only ever get more comprehensive, not less; more accurate, not less; written better, not worse.  That articles grow, develop and improve over time means, of course, that prior to today, they were less comprehensive or less accurate or less well written than they are now.  Going right back to the very first version of any article and comparing it to the current version, and seeing just how many changes there have been in the meantime, sometimes many thousands, is a real eye-opener.  This is very easy using the History tab on the article.


 * Normally, issues about our coverage of a particular subject are discussed on the relevant subject's Talk page, where people who are following that subject are much more likely to be watching, and ready to help in any way they can. If there's any complaint of the article missing an important aspect of the subject's life and works, that's where it's normally best to raise such issues.  Only if that gets no response, would one normally then look further afield to try to remedy the problem, assuming one cannot just edit the article oneself, and that's not normally an issue.  If you can come to this Reference Desk and ask questions and engage in discussion here, then you already have all the skills necessary to edit any article of your choice.  So, in that sense, the solution to your problem is in your hands, since you clearly have sufficient information to directly improve the article right now, today.  If you have the requisite information, but choose not to update the article with it, that would be a matter for you and your own conscience.


 * As for the Wikipedia community as a whole, they certainly do not deserve to be told they've been negligent. This is a voluntary project, where people get involved because they love it, or whatever other private reasons they may have.  There are no duties here, and there is no payment.  Any individual can do as much or as little as they like.


 * I advise you to turn off your "easily insulted" switch. Would you prefer it if we had no article on Mawdudi at all?  There will always be something that someone somewhere expects to be in an article and isn't.  Some parts of the world may operate on disproportionate and highly exaggerated degrees of offence arising from extremely slight provocations.  Fortunately, Wikipedia does not work this way.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  22:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Beef restaurant in Stockholm?
Could someone recommend a good beef restaurant in Stockholm, Sweden, preferably close to the railway station, with inexpensive prices (i.e. lunch excluding drinks in the 100-150 SEK range at a maximum)? J I P &#124; Talk 20:03, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * "Beef restaurant" is a little vague. Do you mean steakhouse (pihviravintola)? Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 20:14, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's what I mean. J I P  &#124; Talk 20:15, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * In that case, I don't have any personal recommendations but Yelp seems to have some options. Good luck, Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 20:31, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I'll have a look at their websites and see what they have to offer. I'm only going to Stockholm in the start of July, so there's plenty of time to figure out where I'm going for lunch. I also found out Jensen's Bøfhus on my own, they have a restaurant in Stockholm at Sveavägen 53, less than a kilometre away from the railway station, with lunch in the 100 SEK range and the cheapest à la carte dishes in the 150 SEK range. J I P  &#124; Talk 20:42, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Is pihviravintola a Finnish word? —Tamfang (talk) 18:39, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes; since both JIP and I speak Finnish, it was the best way to clarify :) Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 18:51, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes it is, and that's why I originally worded my question so - "beef restaurant" is pretty much a direct translation from pihviravintola, although "steak restaurant" would probably be a more exact translation. I just didn't remember that "beef" in English also means cow meat in general. J I P  &#124; Talk 20:23, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it looks like I won't have time to visit any of those restaurants. I will be arriving at Stockholm at 09:45 in the morning, but my train towards central Europe leaves already at 12:14. That gives me plenty of time to walk all the way from the ferry terminal to the railway station, but not enough time to visit any of the restaurants, most of which only open at 11:00. Looks like I'll have to settle for a Burger King hamburger at the railway station, or alternatively try to eat on the train. Of course, I could arrive at Stockholm one day earlier, and spend a full day there, but then I'd have to reserve a hotel room, and I really don't think it's worth all that money just to get to visit a steakhouse. J I P &#124; Talk 19:57, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Or then I could skip the hotel and leave Stockholm late at night, spending two nights on trains instead of just one (which won't add much to the cost, thanks to an InterRail pass), but then I would have to spend 13 hours in Stockholm without any place to go rest myself during the entire time. Doesn't sound too promising either. J I P  &#124; Talk 20:20, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

How do police/prison guards deal with spitters ?
Since saliva can contain AIDS and other diseases, and they can aim for the eyes, they could be charged with a crime, or beaten, I suppose, but I'm more interested in how to prevent them from spitting again. Is there some type of face mask that can be locked on, which allows breathing, talking, and drinking, but prevents spitting ? Eating might be a problem, too, but I imagine a liquid diet could be given to such a prisoner. Ideally they shouldn't die if they vomit with the mask on, either. StuRat (talk) 20:09, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Not really answering the question, but according to the CDC and the New York Department of Health, HIV (and therefore I would assume AIDS) is not spread through saliva. Falconus p t   c 22:12, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I would think that spitting on someone would qualify as assault, which could get you whacked by the cop, or seriously whacked by the prison guard. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:52, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd imagine they're dealt with the same way as any other violent prisoner: punished, confined to their cell, restrained, etc. In the worst case, prison officers have protective gear. --Colapeninsula (talk) 08:53, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I found some products by googling: "The Spit-Stop mask completely covers the prisoner's nose, mouth and chin and features a unique Bio-Shield Membrane to prevent penetration of saliva, blood and vomit. " "Transport hood and Spit Net". Photo and drawing of prisoners wearing such a mask. They allow breathing and talking but not eating or drinking. --Colapeninsula (talk) 08:56, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Cola, good stuff. StuRat (talk) 20:24, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * On TV documentaries about the UK police, I've seen them simply put a towel or similar over the person's head. That's in ad hoc situations, such as transferring someone that has just been arrested from the police van to the police station, if they've previously been spitting. --Tango (talk) 11:50, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * How do they secure the towel ? StuRat (talk) 20:24, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * They just hold it there. --Tango (talk) 15:43, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


 * IIRC, recently in NSW at Newcastle a number of months ago in regards to (IIRC) the court cells, a controversy arose regarding a guard who allegedly illegally beat a prisoner who spat in the guard's face. In countries with rule of law, those responsible for people detained at law need to act within the structure of the law.  AFAIK, this includes concepts of "proportionality" and "authorised conduct" in NSW.  The guard allegedly did not act proportionately, and allegedly did not act within the protocols mandated by the state.  (Further details at Newcastle Morning Herald, Sydney Morning Herald).  Fifelfoo (talk) 12:06, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Correct Fifelfoo. Just today heard of this exact case on the radio. A magistrate gave the guard 7 months (4 non parole period) detention! (the prisoner got 2). Under appeal, guards' union upset etc. See NSW prison guards to stop work --220  of  Borg 17:53, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * What? Law enforcement officers being punished for breaking the law? Whatever next? Sarcasm alert for the hard of thinking DuncanHill (talk) 20:36, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I suggest you look into the history of NSW policing for why people living in NSW would be surprised both by a guilty verdict and a custodial sentence. Try the ABC's Blue Murder for starters.  Then any book on the various commissions into police corruption.  For instance, the Report Volume 1.pdf Wood Royal Commission Final Report Volume I (PDF) at p53, ¶3.71 regarding corrupt policing in the 1970s and early 1980s, "corrupt police were able to select and encourage junior police, who showed a willingness to participate in corrupt activities, to join up with them and then follow them through the ranks. While this meant initially that corrupt police tended to be concentrated in the CIB, on its devolution they took the problem, and their associations to the regions or the specialist squads that remained"  The Wood commission found (p41) that NSW's policing has been mired in corruption, both personal and institutional, since foundation. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:06, 31 May 2012 (UTC)