Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2012 November 11

= November 11 =

Being made to work as payment for hotel bill
According to this Yahoo Answers thread, hotel guests who are unable to pay their bills after completing their stays are often made to work for the hotel (e. g. sweeping floors, etc.) for a few days in order to pay off the money they owe. Is this true, or is it just something the posters made up based on assumptions/misconceptions? If it is true:
 * Is it currently widely practiced in the United States and/or Europe?
 * Do the guests continue to stay at the hotel while working? If so, is the fee for this additional time added to the amount they have to pay off?
 * Do the hotels actually make up the lost money in this way, or is it just a punishment for the guests?

If it isn't true, then what does happen if a guest is unable to pay his or her hotel bill?--156.34.81.229 (talk) 02:38, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * There is an old meme in movies and TV where people who can't pay their restaurant bills are forced to work for the restaurant washing dishes, but I doubt it's legal for a private entity to require anybody to do anything. 216.93.234.239 (talk) 02:52, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * It would essentially be a preemptive out-of-court settlement. That is "work to pay off your bill or we call the cops".  However, I think the more common method is to merely get the person to sign a promissory note, verify their ID, and let them go.  It's just not worth the trouble to make them work it off.   StuRat (talk) 03:43, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Most hotels in Europe and the UK now require a debit or credit card verification before you even have your first night's stay; some will let you stay one night on the promise, but then get very aggressive if you turn out to be dishonest. The ones who take your card details will not have much difficulty getting their money back. On the other hand, I have heard of instances where a hotel who accepted a "promise to pay" from a customer, took and kept his iPhone when he attempted to leave without paying. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:49, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I've also seen it in TV shows and movies (Albert Nobbs comes to mind) but have never heard of it actually being done. It would be too much trouble for one reason.  The hotel owner would have to watch the work being done to make sure it was being done at all or to their satisfaction.  Or come around behind the worker to make sure it was done.  For any large rental, be it for a room or a car, I've always been asked for a credit card to get a pre-authorization and thus some sort of assurance that if I skip out on the bill, they can charge the card anyway.  Why do I fear a prolonged discussion about one editor's travels and how they've never had their card pre-authorized and how they pay their hotel bills in cash?  ;)   Dismas |(talk) 03:56, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Which is, of course, theft. In any jurisdiction I'm familiar with, had the customer called the police they would have got their phone back pretty quickly. --Tango (talk) 22:09, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it's just a joke, to be honest. Why would the hotel manager/restaurateur suddenly employ someone for a day or two to work off their bills, when they already have experienced staff doing the job. What are the other staff going to do? They will need to be paid, too, so the hotel manager/restaurateur will lose money, anyway. Either that, or give the staff some time off, so they lose money. It doesn't make sense.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  10:38, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Plus, what about insurance rules, labour union rules, and is the person legally eligible to work in the country? Duomillia (talk) 17:49, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. The legend must have had its origin in truth, but that was back in the day when it was possible to summarily say "You, get into the kitchen and work your bill off".  Now, it's not, not even if the customer wouldn't mind paying in kind.  That's called progress.  Apparently.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  19:00, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I think there was a Donald Duck cartoon about it - maybe or maybe not - and the idea has been perpetuated from thereon.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  10:38, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt there was such a Donald Duck cartoon, but I call "citation required" on it being the origin of the practice. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  11:39, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, certainly, Jack. I am not saying it started from there. Much of the early Disney stuff was satirical, so there must have been some prior basis in the myth. All I am saying is that the Donald Duck cartoon possibly contributed a lot to the myth's survival. After all, in those days, even adults watched cartoons.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  21:22, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Right. With you.  Just that "perpetuated from thereon" does read as if you were saying it started from there, but I now know that wasn't what you meant.  --  Jack of Oz   [Talk]  21:52, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * By way of anecdote, my local sushi-bar-run-by-an-eccentric-yet-legendary-sushi-chef lists "washing dishes" as an acceptable method of payment. Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 21:54, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Arrangements like that are typically predicated on the beggar washing first and eating after, and such stories go back to prehistory. See The Postman Always Rings Twice. μηδείς (talk) 01:15, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

What's the source of the data in this map?
Hi, I'm wondering where the source of the data in this map is from, and if it's accurate. The file was uploaded by User:Anwar saadat, who was blocked for sockpuppetry. That makes me wonder a bit… Thanks! Goldenshimmer (talk) 04:51, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The data is from UN. Go to this site and choose "Mushroom and truffle" in the drop down menu and you should get something like this.A8875 (talk) 06:04, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Looking at the data again something is not right. The 2005 historical data on the UN site differs from User:Anwar saadat's data. UN puts 2005 Chinese production at 3,409,686t, while Anwar's version puts it at 1,410,540t. A8875 (talk) 06:14, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Term for possible shark victims
What would be the easiest way to express in English "persons who reside are located in ocean waters on their own, for recreational or professional purposes, and so are possibly exposed to shark attacks", like swimmers, divers, surfers, waterskiers... in contrast to castaways, being exposed to such attacks involuntarily? Cause for my question: The current four-species list in Shark attack is a violation of WP:Synthesis, and I intend to repair it by separating the castaway-killer oceanic white tip shark from the three others (great white, tiger and bull), which sometimes attack swimmers. --KnightMove (talk) 10:56, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * This looks less like Synth than like an attempt to try to rehabilitate the oceanic whitetip despite the sources. Rmhermen (talk) 14:02, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I honestly don't understand your point. --KnightMove (talk) 13:18, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * How would a shark know one from the other? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:16, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * And if he (or she) could, would he (or she) care? Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:23, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm still stuck on "persons who reside in ocean waters on their own". To the best of my knowledge, zero persons reside in ocean waters.  Some persons partake of aquatic disportment, which is a temporary state.   --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  21:03, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Obviously a bad machine translation. "Frequent" would be a better verb. μηδείς (talk) 21:45, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Right on. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  22:07, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed. But the interesting question here is, what word in what language would mean frequent but generate reside on google translate? Hopefully not bleiben and certainly not zhit'. Quedarse might work. μηδείς (talk) 00:59, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Without nerdy nitpicking, life would just be half as much fun, right? In case you're honestly interested, I translated German sich aufhalten, not realizing that there is no exact English translation of this expression and reside means a long period, instead of a current moment. There was no machine whatsoever involved. --KnightMove (talk) 13:18, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * How about just "potential shark victims" or "potential shark attack victims" or "people with an elevated risk of a shark attacks" ? StuRat (talk) 07:30, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * This does not help me to differentiate the two situations explained above. --KnightMove (talk) 13:18, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I would say those who frequent shark habitats. (See to frequent.) μηδείς (talk) 17:44, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, this does not solve my problem, as persons might be attacked by sharks who swim there for the very first time. Neither do the sharks care about that, nor do the statistics.
 * Could you say people who seek ocean waters? --KnightMove (talk) 08:11, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * That sounds unnatural and forced. Look, aren't you overthinking this just a bit?  Why don't you just write in your native English what you want to say, and ignore what some German or whatever other language source says.  Who are most in danger from shark attack?  People who use water for recreational purposes, such as swimmers, skiers etc. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  18:55, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * After some pondering, I have tried to fix it so and ask to check it. --KnightMove (talk) 19:34, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Oops, you're not a native Englischer. My bad.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  22:27, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

The proper term is bait, or more specifically, shark bait. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:12, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Diet of black panthers
I need a food chain of the animals that black panthers eat and also pictures of these — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.24.94.252 (talk) 18:12, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * This is a three part project.
 * (1) First, find out what black panthers eat. Our article Black panther says the word means two different kinds of big cats: the Indochinese leopard and the South/Central American Jaguar. To find out what the Indochinese leopard eats, use the diet section in the Leopard article, starting where it says "In Asia…". To find out what the jaguar eats, use the diet section in the Jaguar article.
 * (2) Once you find out the names of the animals that the black panthers eat, you then have to look up each of these animals in turn to find out what they eat. Type their names into the Wikipedia search box at the top of the page. That gives you the food chain.
 * (3) To get pictures, you want to be careful you only use pictures that are free. One good way is to use the Advanced Search on Flickr. Type the name of the animals or plant you are looking up in the "All of these words" box and check the "Only search within Creative Commons-licensed content" box at the bottom before you hit search. 184.147.123.169 (talk) 20:39, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Jaguars eat turtles. That's way cool. μηδείς (talk) 21:44, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * That's especially true on the Autobahn. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:12, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Didn't you have the Just So Stories read to you as a child? "'Now attend to me,' said Painted Jaguar, 'because this is very important. My mother said that when I meet a Hedgehog I am to drop him into the water and then he will uncoil, and when I meet a Tortoise I am to scoop him out of his shell with my paw. Now which of you is Hedgehog and which is Tortoise? because, to save my spots, I can't tell.'"  Alansplodge (talk) 18:28, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The only one of those stories I recall is something about a rhinocerous eating somebody else's dessert cakes, or something like that. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:58, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The jaguar is noted for cracking open the turtle's shell with its most powerful jaws, not pawing at it. μηδείς (talk) 19:48, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, jaguars can't talk, and there aren't hedgehogs in the Amazon rainforest either (unless they've all turned into armadilloes). I don't think it was supposed to be a zoology lesson. Alansplodge (talk) 03:34, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * At least it's marginally related. But you oughta know by now, Alan, about this Magic Reference Desk, where any discussion can, and very often does, turn into any other discussion chosen at random.  We know all about breadth of topics here.  Depth, not so much.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  03:44, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, I should have put it in small text. I'll go and stand in the corner. Alansplodge (talk) 13:59, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Which part of Tallinn is this?
I have visited the restaurant Kohvik Moon in Tallinn, Estonia. It is less than half an hour's walk away from the Viking Line terminal. It's located at Võrgu 3, near the sea shore. What is the official name of this part of Tallinn? J I P &#124; Talk 20:30, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Comparing the location of the restaurant (via the coordinates given on its article) with our map of Tallinn administrative districts it looks just on the eastern edge of Põhja-Tallinn. 184.147.123.169 (talk) 20:44, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Customer IVA
Im trying to fill out a form to reclaim some VAT and it is asking me for "customer IVA". What is this --31.205.16.198 (talk) 21:13, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The acronym IVA is Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian for VAT. Does that help?  (It's possible that the volunteers here will be able to give a more useful answer if you can tell us where you are, where you got the form, where or how you made your purchases, and which country's VAT you're seeking to reclaim.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:47, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The IP geolocates to the UK.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  01:12, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * That's not necessarily the right answer if IVA stands in English for Individual Voluntary Arrangement which is not subject to the VAT--see here at google. μηδείς (talk) 00:55, 12 November 2012 (UTC)