Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2012 September 22

= September 22 =

Leaving a tip with a credit card revisited
It was suggested here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2012_September_9#Leaving_tip_with_credit_card that when paying for a meal with a credit card the tip amount is added only after a receipt is presented to the customer after his card has been run. I ate out tonight with guests. The check was presented before any means of payment was specified. It had lines at the bottom for Amount, which the waitress filled out, Tip, and Total. I asked my guests whether they would normally fill out the tip line before or after the card was charged, and they said filling it out before hand is how one is supposed to do it. μηδείς (talk) 01:03, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Aaaarrrrggghhhh. I love visiting America, except for one thing. I can never tell when, how and how much to tip. Do Americans realise how confusing it is to foreigners? HiLo48 (talk) 01:10, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * You're not the only one. This tipping and Canadian visitors has been in the news quite a bit around here recently.  See this and this.  The solution for some restaurants has been to add a gratuity on to the bills of suspected Canadians since they don't tip the standard amount in general.  Dismas |(talk) 01:17, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * To add to the confusion, some people calculate tip based on the tax-inclusive amount while others calculate it based on the pre-tax amount. A8875 (talk) 01:45, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * There is a strong voice in me saying "This is complete balderdash!" I have spent years in business travelling around  La belle province and other parts of Canada. I know of no place where a service charge is habitual, except for large groups.  We all tip, though more in the 10-20% range, than 15-20%. So, whatever these Canadians are doing in the U.S., that's not the way they behave at home. I am not sure why people are so confused by the matter. If the meal was served in a timely fashion and your order was correct, then 15% is the norm. You give more if you are pleased and less only if there was a problem that affected you enjoyment of your meal and could reasonably be attributed to the waiter's failure. Other problems are brought to the attention of management. A tip in cash is always appropriate. If you are offended by tipping, then don't eat out in countries where tips are expected. You are also fussing about essentially minute amounts of money: on a hundred dollar meal cost, the standard tip would be between $10 and $20. If things are that tight that $10 more or less makes such an upsetting difference, go to a cheaper restaurant. Almost every restaurant posts its menu and its prices, or you can go inside and ask to see a menu. Bielle (talk) 01:54, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Dare I ask where you are at? Because that's never been in my experience in multiple states in the United States (living in California, Massachusetts, and New York, and visiting so many others). The procedure I have seen, universally, including this very evening, is: 1. they bring you a bill in a black leather folding thingy; 2. you give them a credit card; 3. they take the card, swipe it, and return a bill which has the total you agree to pay, a line for a tip, and a line for a signature; 4. you take your card, write in a tip, calculate the total, and sign it. You are then free to leave the restaurant without any further interaction with the servers.
 * I suspect that either you are not in the United States, or you're just having a laugh at us. Because this has been the case whether I've been in the West (California, New Mexico, Arizona), the North West (Oregon and Washington), the South (Georgia, DC), the North East (Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island), or the Midwest (Missouri) — just to name a few places I've definitely paid for meals in this fashion, among others. For my entire life. I've never been to Hawaii or Alaska — maybe they do things different there. No one I have ever eaten with has expressed surprise at this arrangement. Either we live in parallel realities, or, well, I won't say you are silly, but I think one of us is being silly, and it isn't me. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:01, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * (after ec) Medeis, all I can say is that I have never done it that way, and to the best of my observation, I have never been the guest of someone who did it that way. I am agreeing with Mr. 98. At home (Canada) I add the tip and and the total when I receive the credit-card slip to sign or insert it on the hand-held card-reader if it is brought to my table -or I pay cash for the tip. When travelling I watch others or ask. In the south of Spain, for example, the tip was always in cash because there was no place left for it on the credit-card voucher. (Forgot to sign last night, and the automatic one seems to have let us down.  The time of signing is now wrong by at least 8 hours. Bielle (talk) 15:57, 22 September 2012 (UTC))
 * The point I wanted to make is that the process described in the last thread, that the tip was never actually added until after the card had been rung up for more than the price of the meal, was not always the case. I was told that next time I went to a restaurant I would be embarrassed to find I was wrong.  Stragngely I wasn't.  You and I agree it is possible for the tip to be included in one total which is the exact total and only total that is charged. μηδείς (talk) 22:19, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I am just following up as I offered to do when this thread was first posted. I don't see how this could be meant as funny. This was at a diner I ate at outside of NYC, not I place I have eaten at more than a handful of times. I have no problem believing you are presented a slip to sign after the card is run, and maybe you can add the tip then if you want. Of course I tipped in cash. But the original check I got tonight had the exact lines I said, amount, tip and total, which is exactly what I was told did not happen in the last thread. My guests even thought my asking the question was weird. I suppose next time I could take a picture. But in any case, I confirmed my own memory, and am not interested in proving something everyone can check for himself. μηδείς (talk) 02:45, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Wow. All this worry about how much to tip.  Really? you calculate it?  I simply round it up to the nearest whole $1, $5, $10, or whatever I feel comfortable about.  If that means I've tipped a few percent over or under what is usual then I don't worry.  If I'm leaving the tip separately from the payment transaction, it will always be cash and rounded up to a whole $5 or $10 depending on the cost.  What annoys me is he expectation that I will tip, even if the service is poor; or if they have added a "service charge" and then still expect me to add more.  Astronaut (talk) 09:39, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The service was bad, the food worse, we didn't tip. Then a waiter came and yelled at us! Lova Falk   talk  09:58, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * All these anecdotes prove is that conventions about tipping very vary greatly, and that even local norms aren't universal within the locality. Maybe Medeis's diner looks to encourage tipping as part of the card payment, so no cash changes hands? You'd have to ask them.  Rules on whether the tip is retained or pooled; whether the authorities assume a certain level of tipping and tax code staff accordingly; whether the employer can include tips within the staff's hourly rate; whether they have previously had internal problems about tipping - all these may influence a company's tipping procedures. In the UK and Europe I've encountered pre-added "optional" service charges, tips pots by the till, waiters with personal tips bags, and even a big sign saying "No tips!", plus the procedures Medeis and others have described here and earlier.  If unsure, watch what everyone else is doing.  Eating out when travelling in Japan is such a relief. -  Ka renjc 10:33, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * What's bizarre is that Medeis' sequence of events is just not even possible in my experience. The bill they bring originally simply does not have a place to write a tip and a total. Ever. (In my experience.) That is the second, finalized bill, which comes after you've given them the card to swipe. So I just don't see how it can actually be the case. I pay for meals with a card at least once a week. I did so just last night. My experience has never varied on this point in the United States — and I do a fair amount of traveling. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:31, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Look, I think we can all be right here. I think that a) Medeis experience is certainly plausible that, of the hundreds of thousands of restaurants, at least one or two do it that way.  The other 999,998 or so do it the other way.  That is, there is a standard practice, as many people have noted.  The existance of that standard does not preclude other restaurants doing it differently.  -- Jayron  32  16:01, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I just did a google image search of restaurant checks and none of them showed a line for the tip, although that was not the case last night. I suspect if you got one of those tiplineless checks, then handed the waitress the credit card, you could end up getting a pre-authorized slip back to sign, so the waitress wouldn't have to make two more trips.  But my experience is in fancier restaurants you get the little wallet with a pen and the line for the tip, so once again, I would normally expect the total with tip to be written down before it is charged. μηδείς (talk) 16:14, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * When I waited at Denny's in the 80's, if a customer wanted to pay with a card, we took it to the front and made an imprint, and returned the imprint to the customer to fill out, including the line for a tip, and sign before the charge was processed by the hostess.


 * Well, I can't speak to the practices of 30 years ago, but obviously that's not how it is done now. I simply find it implausible that somehow you've only gone to the three restaurants in the world that do it differently. I used a card to pay at lunch today and it was same situation as always, which I already described (you get the wallet, there is no line for a tip, you send it back with the card, then the wallet comes back with your card, the final bill, the line for the tip and signature). I am suspicious that you are simply not paying very close attention (or pulling our leg for whatever personal reason). I find it exceedingly unlikely that the practices are actually different where you are, if you are actually near NYC, which is completely "normal" in this respect. --Mr.98 (talk) 21:51, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, ya got me, Mister. I am just a practiced troll, and this is what I do all day, make up stories about restaurant visits I never had so I can lie to people I don't know about things I don't care about. μηδείς (talk) 22:15, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * In my experiences here in the USA, gratuities (tips) are often automatically added for groups of some specified minimum size. With small parties, it's as Mr.98 said: They bring you the initial bill, you give them the credit card, they run it, and then bring it back with the final bill, which includes a line for a tip and a line for the overall total, plus a signature line. And by the way, I asked the waitress this evening just how tips are handled when on a credit card. The answer is that at the end of the shift, they pay those tips to the waiter or waitress. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:40, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * As an ex-waitress and friend and relative of many waitrices, I know that payout policy varies by restaurant. (Not fast food joint.) μηδείς (talk) 06:10, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Are "waitrices" those who have been waitresses thrice ? :-) StuRat (talk) 06:17, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * We went through that issue exhaustively, and nauseatingly, last year, don't you remember? --  ♬ Jack of Oz  ♬ [your turn]  11:10, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Medeis, was the restaurant at which you ate affiliated with a hotel? Hotel-affiliated restaurant checks often include a line for the tip, so that hotel guests can complete the check and charge it to their rooms.  If you do pay by credit card, your guests were wrong:  It is not customary to fill out the tip line before giving the server your credit card, and if you do, it will be ignored.  John M Baker (talk) 13:37, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No, it was just a diner. We usually stop at one of the best diners in the world, Mastoris, http://www.mastoris.com/, but went somewhere less crowded the name of which escapes me. μηδείς (talk) 22:45, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The Queen Mary II has an apparently mandatory daily gratuity charge automatically added to your ships account of around $14 (if I remember correctly) per person per day. Those in the know can opt out with a word to the Purser.

Lego brick to connect two flat surfaces at 90 degrees angle from each other
Is there a lego brick I can use to connect two flat plates, one lying on the XY plane, and one on the YZ or XZ plane --Iae (talk) 18:16, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * There are lego bricks to connect pretty much anything to anything. twice. --Jac 16888 Talk 18:20, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * They seem to call the ones you want "knobs" (seems like an odd name for them, to me). So, typing in "knob" for Brick Name under Advanced Search on the left side of that menu brings up some with a fixed 90 degree angle, mixed in with others. StuRat (talk) 19:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

There are lego hinge plates of various types: face to face and side to side. μηδείς (talk) 18:46, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Searching for "angle plate" shows a bunch. Pfly (talk) 18:51, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Gatorade Overdose
What would most likely be the cause of death from drinking too much Gatorade? I know drinking too much water will cause electrolyte imbalances, but what if you drink too much of an isotonic liquid? Acceptable (talk) 22:34, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Some forms of Gatorade contain Yellow No. 6, which is harmless for most people but might be a problem for someone allergic to aspirin. --NellieBly (talk) 00:43, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Gatorade has lots of sugar, so I would suspect the likely problem may be hyperglycemia. Severe hyperglycemia can lead to Ketoacidosis which may lead to all sorts of health problems.  -- Jayron  32  22:53, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * That much sugar could kill a diabetic much easier. You might think a diabetic would know better than to drink lots of Gatorade, but, in my experience, many of them aren't that savvy as far as what they can eat/drink and what they can't (which explains why they may have gotten adult-onset diabetes in the first place). StuRat (talk) 23:11, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Without getting into medical advice, how much would "that much" be, Stu? --  ♬ Jack of Oz  ♬ [your turn]  00:16, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, it looks like one bottle contains 32 grams of sugar: (select the serving size from the pull-down menu at the top).  And, of course, it's possible to drink more than one.  StuRat (talk) 00:33, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * A search of Google Scholar and Pubmed shows no reports of any fatalities caused by drinking Gatorade, so anything here would be speculative. Looie496 (talk) 23:21, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I forget now, how does one close down a discussion as being part trolling, part medical advice, and all bullshit? μηδείς (talk) 00:22, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * So that's why you closed things for no apparent reason, several times a day, just so you could remember how. :-) StuRat (talk) 00:37, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Here's how:

Content goes here.
 * Okay, you just made me spit up my sushi. Good thing I wasn't drinking three gallons of sports drink.  μηδείς (talk) 01:06, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I think I'm justified removing the Resolved tag to add some useful sourced material with better information on another aspect of this matter. This article says "runners need to be warned that overconsumption of fluids (whether water or sports drinks) before, during, or after exercise can have a potentially fatal outcome." (It's about half way. And I did the bolding.) I heard an explanation the other day saying that even sports drinks have lower concentrations of elements like sodium than the body's internal fluids, so the more of them you drink, the more you lower the percentage level inside your body. So they have the negative same effect as water, just a little more slowly. HiLo48 (talk) 01:46, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't the relevant comparison be with the level of concentration of salts in sweat (presuming that the Gatorade is used to replace fluids lost by sweating) ? Or perhaps losses to urine during exercise are also significant. StuRat (talk) 02:03, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Fortunately, she recovered. Here's a very recent coroner's finding about a bushwalker who died because he drank too much water.   --  ♬ Jack of Oz  ♬ [your turn]  01:51, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Noted at Water intoxication. As Gatorade is primarily water, that is the most likely prognosis. ---—  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 02:04, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Evul, evul, evul, you are all evul, and I mentioned water intoxication first! Priority, priority, priority! μηδείς (talk) 04:40, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Great, are we now 'Firsting' on the ref desk. Lovely.  -- Jayron  32  04:48, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I marked as resolved because it was noted that it had never happened. Drinking too much fluids is well documented as fatal. Apteva (talk) 04:56, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The OP mentioned water intoxication from the start, and was specifically asking about isotonic drinks, which doesn't present a risk of water intoxication. How about people that know less than the OP about the subject keep their mouths shut? --Tango (talk) 14:34, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't forget the infamous case of the football coach who died from Gatorade. After winning their conference title, the players at Wassamatta U. dumped several kegs of it on the coach, but as the college is based at Frostbite Falls, the stuff had frozen solid, and the coach was iced. So tragic. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:27, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That's because he wasn't wearing a helmet and body armour like a pansy. Real sportsmen don't need that stuff. :) KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:38, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeh, at our university the Rugby team issued bumper stickers to raise awareness of the sport. The two I remember are "Give Blood - Play Rugby" and "To Play Rugby Requires Leather Balls". Even the women's team, it seemed. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * My favorite is "Rugby players eat their dead."DOR (HK) (talk) 09:03, 26 September 2012 (UTC)