Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2012 September 9

= September 9 =

Hairbreadth Harry cartoon was omitted from your list of cartoons
Your list of cartoon strips did not include Hairbreadth Hairy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.59.171.214 (talk) 12:53, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I take it you are referring to Hairbreadth Harry. I'm not sure what list you have in mind, but the only reason Hairbreadth Harry is not on it is because no-one has yet added it. You can do this yourself, click the 'Edit' tab and away you go.  --Viennese Waltz 13:16, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It has been added now and I have corrected the link to show the section linked above. Alansplodge (talk) 16:04, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

yangtze university
i want to know all details about this university ? is it valid ,verified university situated in the country China ? please tell me as soon as possible and what is the rank of this university in the world ?Sana imam (talk) 13:28, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Are you referring to Yangtze Normal University?  → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 14:46, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi there, I think what Michael has pointed out is that the wiki article linked may answer most of your questions. If you have anymore please specify, best of luck! Marketdiamond (talk) 10:48, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, please understand what the Reference Desk of Wikipedia is. There are thousands of us working here, and when one of us comes along who knows the answer to a question, we answer it. If you want some random person who doesn't know the answer to answer as soon as possible, that person will just Google the information, as you can very easily do.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  17:52, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

same background
I notice that the photos of Citroen Rosalie Coupe and SM have similar background. Where is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.155.47 (talk) 16:35, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Here are the photos.


 * The filenames describe each as 'at Anet'. I would strongly suspect this to mean specifically the Château d'Anet. Some of the brickwork in this photo looks very similar, but I haven't managed to find a photo showing the exact same view. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:57, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That's got to be the same structure. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:06, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. Having looked again a few times I'm now convinced that the spot where the cars are parked is immediately to the right of the image linked. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 17:13, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * This is pretty close to the same angle. I think some of the brick fence in front has been redone since the Citroen pics were taken. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:18, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * This is larger. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:23, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You can see the same buildings on Google Maps Street View, it is the right hand side of the main gate with the chapel in background, the brickwall at the front and the road have been changed in the 30-odd years since the image was taken but the structures are clearly the same. MilborneOne (talk) 17:24, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You beat me to it. :) Go to [Château d'Anet] on Google Maps street view, and you can position yourself at the same angle as the Citroen pics. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:26, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Geronimo
The article Geronimo says his original name is "Goyaałé", and "Geronimo" was a name given to him by Mexican soldiers. However, I have never understood why they named him "Geronimo", or what that name means. It doesn't seem to have any resemblance to his original name. So where does the name come from? J I P &#124; Talk 18:37, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you might continue reading the article, which explains exactly that in the fourth paragraph of the first main section. --jpgordon:==( o ) 19:26, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Leaving tip with credit card
When I pay with a credit/debit card after eating a meal in an American restaurant, there is a line on the receipt where it says my meal total and then below that is a line for tip and then below that is a line for total that includes tip. Is it ok if I just leave the tip line blank and just fill out the grand total that includes the tip?

For example, if the meal came out to $50, and I want to add 10$ tip, can I just write $60 in the grand total section and not write anything for the tip section (because sometimes the arithmetic can be tricky)? Will the restaurant will be able to accept the tip if I do it that way? I have been doing this all the time, but recently when I checked my bank statements, it seemed that the restaurant only charged me the price of the meal without the tip. Are they unable to accept the tip this way if I leave it blank?

Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 19:15, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * If you are going to pay with a credit card, maybe you should [calculate with one] as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.35.96.181 (talk) 01:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Waiters prefer getting cash. If you pay with credit card, the amount will be taxed, the person will only get it at the end of the month, and sharing it with the busboy or with the cook won't be that easy. They are certainly able to fill the blank spot for you if you really leave it blank, since that's like a check. So either write an amount there, a zero with a dash through it or 'cash' (and pay your tip with cash. OsmanRF34 (talk) 19:31, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Why aren't cash tips taxed? RudolfRed (talk) 19:38, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * They are. Tax evasion is simply easier with cash that's all. A8875 (talk) 19:44, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Do not only leave a total. The discrepancy may not be caught, especially if you pay at the register, and all might go in the till. And always pay tips in cash, regardless of the fact that it makes tax evasion easier. Waitresses often live day to day on their tips. If they have to wait till their next paycheck they will find that the check comes out close to zero, since they usually make less than minimum wage, and taxes on estimated tips are deducted. I am sure there must be twenty threads on this in the archives, since I know I discussed my waitressing days before. μηδείς (talk) 19:57, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Just the total is a bad idea. As far as "less than minimum wage", it depends on the state. Some states, such as California and Nevada, have very strong protections for tipped employees; tips in those states are not set against minimum wage, and minimum wage is the same for tipped and non-tipped employees. Most states are not as nice, but even in those with protections, if you don't say explicitly on the credit card slip that a certain amount is a tip (by using the tip line), management is likely in no obligation to treat it as a tip. --jpgordon:==( o ) 20:05, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * My wife and I are both UK citizens who like to travel a lot, particularly so now we are retired. And despite being pensioners, we like to reward good service with a good tip. But here in the UK that tops out at about 10% whereas when we were last in the US we were advised to leave no less than 20%, which, on top of an already expensive meal, was to us a tad too expensive, so we always chose to discuss what might be deemed "fair" with the server. And we were pleasantly surprised on most occasions to find that these pre-determined percentages were not really expected on each and every occasion, and the staff were happy to accept whatever we offered, especially so as many clients, including their fellow Americans, left zero. But we agree with what has been said above in that we would NEVER leave a tip that was chargeable to plastic - we always leave cash. But tipping can work both ways. I will never forget the surly service and cold sticky clam chowder we were served on Pier 39 in San Francisco a couple of years ago. The server was more interested in comparing her nail varnish with a colleague than she was in attending to us, so when the bill came, I paid it in cash, and left her a single red cent for a tip. As we were leaving, she screamed, "A cent, a goddam single red cent. Is that what you call a tip back home in the UK?" And I politely replied, but loudly enough so that everyone else in the restaurant could hear me, "I am so terribly sorry, but I didn't have anything smaller". 82.41.229.241 (talk) 22:58, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * 15% in the US is standard; a marked deviation from that means something (unless you're bad at arithmetic, or rendered so by drink). I've left a 1¢ tip just once, when the service (not the food) was extraordinary bad - if the food is bad yell at the manager (for it really is his fault), get a major discount, and then leave a massive tip. Pier 39 is a huge tourist trap; you should have gone to the Stinking Rose on Columbus. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 23:09, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * (At the risk of diverting the question to other jurisdictions, for which I apologise) in some places (including it seems the UK) if there is ambiguity as to whether a surplus on the basic charge is a tip to the restaurant or the staff, the restaurant may assume it's all for them (ref for UK). A Californian friend of mine, who is a labor lawyer, always carries an envelope into which he puts a cash tip, and on which he writes "cash tip for wait and kitchen staff ONLY" (followed by some extra-belligerent legal threats about the dire consequences under the California Labor Code should the restaurant owners take the money). My advice to Acceptable is never to leave the tip line blank, but to draw a line horizontally through it, write the same "total" amount as the pre-tip amount, and tip in cash. But (actually to answer the question asked) in my experience the amount that gets entered into the credit card machine is the "grand total", whatever you decide to put. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 23:02, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * And to answer a question that has not been asked but is relevant. The restaurant may approve a certain dollar amount which is in excess of the bill and a potential tip. Then once the bill is signed, they will again put the transaction through for the real amount. So, say you have $110 in your account and the bill came to $100. The restaurant may attempt to authorize your card for $120 and get rejected even though you have the $100 for the bill. But if you have $150 and they authorize it for $120, your credit card will, for a time, show a charge of $120. After you pay, the charge changes to the $100 plus any tip that you might have included. At no time does the restaurant know how much you can potentially approve though. Dismas |(talk) 23:11, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Agree with Finlay on all points including the 15% standard. The press put forth some 20% BS about 2000 AD based on press releases.  Ignore it, it's a ridiculous scam.  Waitstaff do not expect 20% except if you are happy, generous, and tipsy, and even then they do not expect it as a right.  I am not quite sure I understand Dismas's point.  I would be very surprised to see a restaurant charge anything except what was authorized, and to call the police if you authorized less than the bill and walked out.  μηδείς (talk) 23:15, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Maybe if I put it in more of a timeline format?
 * Customer orders, eats, asks for the bill, sees the total is $100
 * Customer approves and hands back bill (in the little book) with their credit card
 * Wait staff goes and runs card through machine and inputs a potential charge of $130 (more than enough for a generous tip)
 * Card is approved and prints the standard two copies of the receipt
 * Customer gets receipt and fills in a tip of $15 and a total of $115
 * Wait staff get their copy of the receipt, thanks customer, and goes back and puts through an actual transaction for $115
 * The $130 is changed to $115 and the transaction processes
 * So, for the few minutes that it took for the back and forth to take place, there was a hold on the customer's card for $130 of which only $115 is eventually used. This is the way that I've had it explained to me in the past.  Dismas |(talk) 03:12, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The length of time the estimated charge is held (an authorization hold) will vary depending on how and where it is processed, but I wouldn't ever count on the hold only lasting for a few minutes. Even if your server enters the revised total immediately (which may not happen, particularly on a busy night), the final, correct total may not be sent to the credit card company until the end of the business day, when all of the corrections and revisions are submitted as a single batch.  Even after the revised total is received by the credit card company, they may take a day or two or three to process it and post the final amount.  (Obviously, this caveat doesn't occur with the tableside 'remote' point-of-sale terminals where you insert or swipe your card and key in your tip at the machine.  In general, these devices only contact the credit card company after you've approved the final total with tip, so no estimated authorization hold amount is required.)  TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:56, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I am totally confused here. Why is the restaurant charging an amount above what the customer authorized at any point?  What would be the purpose for potentially opening yourself up to fraud or theft charges, or even just losing your privilege to process charge transactions? μηδείς (talk) 04:01, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't really see how it can be explained any clearer then what Dismas already said. As I'm sure our article linked above explains, an authorisation hold of a larger then final payment amount is a fairly is a normal part of the way a number of companies process credit card transactions. There's probably even something mentioned about it in your credit card terms and conditions. I wasn't personally aware of it being used for restaurant bills (unless they require a credit card before ordering) but it is often used with petrol pumps and accomodation (particularly fancy hotels with room service, minibars, PPV and other expensive optional extras); basically anywhere that the seller isn't sure of the final transaction cost but wants to try and make sure you have enough to cover it whatever it may be. However Dismas explaination sounds plausible particularly in places like the US where tips are the norm and with restaurants and places where it's common to give your credit card and sign the transaction slip. (In NZ tipping is not the norm. Pins for CC/DC are the norm, some fancier restaurants may have portable EFTpos devices, but in most cases you just go to the counter to pay.) Nil Einne (talk) 04:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * (EC with below) Now that I read the linked article, I see it explicitly mentions the tipping case. It does mention the practice is sometimes forbidden, but when it is, the acquirer usually guarantees settlement of the authorised amount plus something extra. I don't know if this is necessarily a better solution since I presume it means it's easier to go over your credit card limit. Nil Einne (talk) 04:24, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * (ec) I'm pretty sure that this is explained in the article on authorization holds, which I already linked. A Google search on the term will find a wealth of information (and a few complaints, generally from individuals who are operating inadvisably close to their credit limits).  To be clear, no money actually moves from the credit card company to the merchant's account until after a transaction is finalized (with the correct tip and total); the authorization hold just temporarily reduces the cardholder's available credit until the final, correct amount is posted...or until the preauthorized amount 'falls off', which may be between one week and one month later, and which happens if the transaction isn't ever finalized by a merchant.  (This doesn't tend to happen with restaurant charges, but may occur with other sorts of transactions like car rentals or hotel bookings.  Even if you prepay your car hire or hotel room, it is not uncommon for the rental agency or hotel to preauthorize an additional charge&mdash;both to ensure that your card is valid, and to make sure that you can cover any additional incidental fees you might incur: extra miles or an empty fuel tank for a rental car, or minibar and pay-per-view movies in your hotel room.)  TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:21, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It's explained at Authorization hold. Dismas |(talk) 04:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * And by the way, this also happens with mail order companies. Though in that case it's generally the same price all the way through without allowances for tips or whatever.  I work for one such company during the holidays and they do it all the time.  Say a customer calls and places an order.  Our company will put through an authorization request for the final price while the customer is on the phone or placing the order online.  The card isn't charged until the order actually ships though.  That's all well and good if everything goes as planned.  If the customer calls and stops the order before it ships, the authorization can take days/weeks to "fall off" and if they look at their credit limit online they may think that they've been charged when they haven't.  They're looking at the authorization and not a charge.  Dismas |(talk) 04:30, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Is this European? Do they just do this to certain "profiled" customers with a skin color different from mine?  I can see this at a hotel or for a rental car.  But am I supposed to understand that the restaurant is asking for the credit card before the meal is eaten, and is running a preauth before the final bill is tallied?  I have eaten at some quite expensive restaurants, although I've never had a bill of $1,000 or more, and have never come across this.  Am I understanding this correctly?  I would never return to such an establishment. In fact, I would probably react like Shockeye the Androgum in the Two Doctors episode of Doctor Who when presented a bill. μηδείς (talk) 04:33, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No; no; no; and no, you're not. The meal is eaten, the bill (before tip) is calculated, and then the restaurant runs the card for the pre-auth amount.  After the customer writes in the tip (and most likely after the customer has left and the business has closed for the evening) the final, correct amount is posted.  Re-read Dismas' sequence of events.  Every time you send your credit card off with the waiter an amount in excess of your bill (by 20-30%) is being preauthorized; you just weren't aware of it until now.  TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:55, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have read the link. And I have seen holds on gas purchases.  But this still makes no sense to me.  The gas station gets the card up front.  Maybe the practice is illegal in NY and NJ where I have paid restaurant bills?  I do not even understand how it is that the waitress has my credit card before a final bill has been tallied, I have refused desert, and I have filled out the payment slip and signed for the specified amount. Is there wording on the bill that says an over-authorization may be processed? Where is my ceremonial Androgum dagger? μηδείς (talk) 05:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * S/He doesn't have your card before the bill is tallied. Read my sequence again.  The bill is tallied, the customer is presented with the bill, they look it over and hand it back with their card, then the wait staff goes back to their register and gets an authorization for the amount of the bill plus a percentage.  The customer is done eating by this point.  They've already refused dessert.  I doubt there is any wording on the bill but it's likely in your contract with the credit card company.  Dismas |(talk) 05:19, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Simply repeating the same information doesn't explain why such a practice would be in place. Is the waitress afraid she has mistallied, so overcharges the customer?  There must be some rationale for this, and telling me I haven't psychically read into your link deep enough doesn't answer the question.  Why, why, when the tally is agreed upon, overcharge, and then recharge for the correct amount?  Why have I never encountered this practice in NY or NJ?  Don't tell me I am illiterate or lack clairvoyance; give me a reliable and coherent source that explains this. μηδείς (talk) 05:39, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I think I understand what you're asking but my confusion comes from the idea that you've actually paid with a credit card in a restaurant before, so you know what the process is from the customer's viewpoint is. It seems as though you're asking "Why can't the waitress add up the bill, give it to you, you put down how much you'd like to tip and the grand total, and then you hand over your card for the one and only transaction?" Correct? As far as I know, it's simply a holdover from when everything was done with cash or check. With cash, you would be able to be handed the bill, put the cash down and go. Unless you needed change, in which case that required another trip for the waitress. When credit cards came along, the procedure stayed the same. You are handed the bill and you "pay" with the card. They then authorize the card and once that's done, you have the option of leaving a tip. And in order to get the receipt with all the relevant info (time, date, and printed (not scribbled in waitress' handwriting) total) the credit card machine must have scanned a card. Dismas |(talk) 07:19, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

The preauthorized hold amount isn't 'charged', it is just 'held'. That isn't just a semantic difference. While the hold (temporarily) reduces your available credit limit, it does not count as a charge. You are not billed for the amount – it will not be part of your card balance, it will not be eligible to accrue interest, etc. – until the transaction is finalized and the full and correct restaurant bill amount is posted to your account. While you won't ever see the hold amount on your credit card slip at the restaurant (in New York, in New Jersey, or anywhere) rest assured that it is there. (The only place you're likely to actually see the unposted hold amount is if you check your online credit card statement in the narrow window between when the preauthorization hold is placed and the final transaction amount is posted.)

From a mechanics-of-service standpoint, preauthorizing an amount sufficient to cover the maximum likely tip means that the customer doesn't have to wait for the server to return to the table a minimum of three times to complete the transaction: once to present the original bill and collect the customer's credit card, once to return with the printed charge slip (with the customer name, card number, card expiry, and blanks for tip and total), and a third time to return with a final charge statement after the total (including tip) has cleared. The customer can leave immediately after filling in the tip and total. Also important, the customer doesn't have to fill out multiple charge slips if the first card doesn't clear.

As I mentioned above, in recent years wireless point-of-sale terminals have begun to appear that allow restaurants to process debit and credit card transactions at tableside. With these systems, receipt printing and card authorization happens after the customer keys the tip (and their PIN) into the machine, so the final amount is posted immediately to their card account and preauthorization is not required. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:20, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, it makes a little more sense to me if one assumes the client is going to pay for the meal first and then add the tip on after the card has been run. Although on the rare occasions when I have put the tip on the charge because I didn't have the cash I have done so when paying, not after.  Indeed, I don't think I have ever seen anybody do that in my presence.  Thanks for finally clearing that up. μηδείς (talk) 19:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure you actually have it cleared up. When you're eating in a normal restaurant with table service, the bill is presented after you eat.  At that point, if you decide to pay by credit card, you put the card on the table with the bill (sometimes the bill is presented in a little folder, and there's a slot for a credit card).  The waiter takes the card (and usually the bill) back to his station.  It is at this point that the card is swiped, and the preauthorized hold is placed on your credit card account.  Once the hold is successful, a charge slip is printed with your name, (part of) your card number, the meal cost, and also blanks for tip, total, and your signature.  The waiter returns your card to you, and asks you to finish filling out at least one copy of the charge slip.  Whether your add a tip or not, your card isn't run a second time; the restaurant just finalizes the transaction (sometime between when you leave and the end of the day) with the appropriate amount.  I don't understand what you mean when you talk about leaving the tip 'when paying', versus 'after'; the tip isn't part of a separate transaction.  TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:25, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I can't remember the last time I put a tip on the card, it may have been more than ten years ago. And I normally offer to tip in cash if someone else is paying (and pretty much insist if I see they aren't going to tip in cash).  So maybe I am misremembering.  But I recall filling out the slip with the tip amount on it and then handing this with the card to the waitress.  It's been quite a while since I got an actual order sheet that was given to the cook to prepare as a bill, in which case I could see getting the charge form to fill out after it is run through, but usually things are computerized now and you get a printed total with a tip and signature line on it before the card has been run through. μηδείς (talk) 19:50, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I suspect you're going to remember this conversation and feel silly the next time you pay by credit card in a restaurant. You won't receive a slip with the signature line until after you've handed over your card, because the slip you sign needs to have your card's details on it. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:11, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I suspect you are right, although I don't intend to experiment on the waiter by not tipping in cash. μηδείς (talk) 21:00, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * As long as you're paying the bill by credit card, you'll get the slip with the blank tip and total lines along with the signature line. That's the whole point of this discussion about preauthorized holds&mdash;the restaurant doesn't know in advance that you're going to put a zero on the tip line and pay the tip in cash.  TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:40, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Do me a favor Ten, and I mean this in all sincerity. Leave a message on my talk page with the header "I told you so" and the body telling me to get back to you next time I use a credit card at a restaurant.  I'll follow up then.  I don't want to continue a debate on this here at the ref desk.  I do appreciate all your effort here. μηδείς (talk) 21:47, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I am dumbfounded at the vast majority of responses implying that it is basically some great evil to pay a tip via credit card, as that is what I do and what all of my co-workers do. I feel extremely uncomfortable carrying and counting out cash, given that if I happen to lose my wallet or be robbed, I can lose the cash - but not the balance on any of my credit or debit cards, which can be replaced. If it is some great inconvenience for employees to be tipped via credit card, do not permit that option at the restaurant in the first place.--WaltCip (talk) 15:46, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 * What sort of tips are you leaving that losing the cash to cover them would bankrupt you? If you do not enjoy tipping, then by all means, the waitron will be lucky to get anything.  But if you do have cash in pocket, consider leaving a cash tip even if you do pay with a credit card, and you can enjoy knowing you returned the pleasure.  And if you were annoyed by the service, but still intend to tip, by all means put it on the credit card. The difference is the reinforcement of immediate cash in hand from you, the client whom she pleased, or waiting for her employer to reimburse her, minus deductions, at the end of some period, as if she were just some wage slave going through the motions. μηδείς (talk) 18:58, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Maintaining the Ideals Expressed in the American Declaration of Independence
The parts of this article which I have copied from other authors are in Italics. All these citations are from previously-published articles. The citation follows, as a part of the text. So, the authors do get full credit.

I trust this is OK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonielou (talk • contribs) 23:08, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The above is your only edit. What, pray tell, are you talking about? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Your title caught my eye! It seems that you forgot a link or to paste what you are referring to.  Will check back if you wish to add it, got my curiosity.  Marketdiamond (talk) 10:46, 10 September 2012 (UTC)