Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2013 April 23

= April 23 =

Inefficient toilet
A toilet in my home has an inefficient flush, to the extent that toilet paper sometimes will fail to disappear, even with repeated flushing.

Question 1: Is there a simple measure, either preventative or remedial, to address this problem? [this is the most important question!]

Question 2: In terms of physics, what is causing the toilet paper to stay in the bowl?

Interestingly, the toilet copes much better with toilet paper than it does with tissues, which it simply refuses to flush, regardless, it would seem, of size.

Question 3: Is there a scientific explanation for the difference in 'performance' between tissues and loo paper?

Many thanks and happy flushings, --Dweller (talk) 08:09, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Where are you? Toilets around the world vary a lot in basic design. I'm Australian, a country that's worked hard to reduce the water usage in toilets (We're often a bit short on water here), and visiting the USA and seeing bowls brimming with enough water to do about five flushes here is always a shock. HiLo48 (talk) 08:33, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm in the UK and it has a smallish reservoir. --Dweller (talk) 08:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * You've identified the problem; the reservoir is too small to get the job done. Had the same problem once. Replacement was not an option because it was a short term rental, so I used a bucket to flush. Filled it in the bathtub. Worked just fine. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 09:03, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * As for your other questions, the answer is trapped air. Tissues are aparently less pervious to air than toilet paper, so the air takes longer to leak out. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 09:06, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I presume there is a way to fiddle with the mechanism in the reservoir so it fills closer to the brim. Is this the kind of thing I can work out for myself? (you can tell how DIY competent I am from the first part of this post!) --Dweller (talk) 09:13, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * That would entirely depend on the type of mechanism, and there are several different mechanisms used, all based on different principles. It would be rather easy with a ball float mechanism such as this: []. Simply bend the metal stem so that the ball can float higher before it shuts the valve. Other mechanisms are more difficult or impossible to adjust. Unless the difference in water level is substantial, it is unlikely that fiddling with the water level is going to have much effect. You probably need to install a larger reservoir, or replace the toilet if the reservoir is not separate from the rest. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 09:24, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you. --Dweller (talk) 09:31, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * There is generally a little plastic nut and bolt at the end of the ball cock arm that controls how far it can rise. You might try tinkering with that before you start bending anything. Newer cisterns might have a plastic arm anyway. There are a lot of videos on YouTube that show how a cistern works, like this one. Alansplodge (talk) 10:44, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * this might be helpful. Richard Avery (talk) 14:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I may regret asking this, but why on earth have you been putting tissues down the toilet? HenryFlower 14:02, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * It's called toilet paper for a reason...! The Rambling Man (talk) 14:06, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The toilet paper's less of a problem than the tissues, TRM --Dweller (talk) 14:13, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I didn't say I did. Said toilet has shared usage, including by the type of people who have also been known, over the years, to flush small but ridiculously expensive plastic objects away, throw stainless steel cutlery in bins, ram chicken bones down the plughole, place small items as far as they can up their noses and smear green ink on white painted doors, handrails and walls. --Dweller (talk) 14:13, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * A few thoughts:


 * 1) Tissues and toilet paper flush much easier after they are soaked. For facial tissues which are relatively clean, you might just leave them there for a while, until they become completely soaked.  For toilet paper which is, um, "used", that might be a bit gross, so you could pour some water directly on them with a bucket to soak them more quickly.


 * 2) It also helps to increase the refill flow rate into the tank, as it starts to refill immediately when you start the flush, and much of that is also flushed, along with the initial content of the tank.


 * 3) There may be a partial blockage in the drain. Try plunging it a bit. StuRat (talk) 14:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ideas 2 and 3 are very useful, thanks. Idea 1 may be true, but this toilet is refusing to flush even when the stuff is drenched. --Dweller (talk) 14:34, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * In terms of a solution, the number of things you can change is pretty limited.
 * Certainly you should remove the lid on the cistern and see how high the water level rises. As others have explained, the mechanisms vary from place to place - but usually you can figure out that there is a part that floats upwards on the water and eventually shuts off the valve allowing more water in.  There is also an overflow tube that prevents the bathroom from flooding if that valve fails.  Ideally, you want to adjust the little screw on the valve until the water level gets close to the top of the overflow tube - certainly within a half inch or so.  That maximizes the amount of water in each flush...which helps your problem.  In older toilets with a "ballcock" - there is a large ball on the end of an arm that shuts the valve, and bending that arm has a similar effect to adjusting the valve screw...I recommend adjusting the screw first and only bending the arm as a matter of last resort!
 * Blockages. You can certainly check that there is no blockage between cistern and bowl - and on the outflow from the bowl into the sewer line.  Use a plunger to try to improve the latter.  Removing blockages improve the flow rate - and hence the power of the flush.
 * On US-style toilets, the water is released from the cistern with a "flap" which is raised when you push the handle. Generally there is a chain that goes from the arm attached to the handle down to the flap.  If that chain is loose, then the flap won't open all the way when you push down on the lever - and the initial, fastest flow rate will be less.  You should be able to see how to tighten that chain.  In UK-style toilets, the whole thing works using a far superior syphon-based mechanism - which eliminates that problem - but adds a new one where a faulty mechanism can prevent the toilet from flushing at all.  In French-style toilets...urgh...it's a design nightmare...god alone knows why they did that...I recommend that you emigrate!
 * If all else fails - then (as others have said) a bucket of water dumped into the toilet will work wonders. In the event of blockages, a bucket of hot water with dish-soap in it will help remove material that's stuck inside almost as well as a plunger.
 * SteveBaker (talk) 14:58, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * (Wouldn't have helped with some recent vandalism at a local school. That involved someone tossing a bag of Plaster of Paris into the bowl, but that's probably not Dweller's problem.) HiLo48 (talk) 22:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Tissues are best put in the trash rather than being flushed down the toilet: because they don't break down into a mushy suspension as quickly as toilet paper. Even worse, naturally, are wet wipes, paper towels, tampons, or "flushable" diaper linings. For a flush mechanism for US type toilets, I have found the Korky or Fluidmaster type fill valve to be more reliable and easily adjustable than the older ball float type.  Modern water-saving toilets use about 1/3 the water of older 3 gallon per flush ones, and often take 2 flushes to get everything flushed down. Modern high velocity low volume toilets like the Toto often are able to blast paper down the drain when it might just float on the surface, but they might not satisfy your local plumbing codes and practices.. Does yours have a cistern in the attic? Any idea what the volume of water per flush is? The overflow tube is the limiting factor, and sometimes a longer tube can be used to get more volume, the ultimate limit being where the porcelein tank has penetrations like bolts to attach it to the wall. Edison (talk) 16:22, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * See Definitions of toilet tissue - OneLook Dictionary Search.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 16:40, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * One other comment: Facial tissues with moisturizers tend to stick and clump far more than those without. So, if you can't keep people from trying to flush them, at least get the non-moisturized type. StuRat (talk) 17:48, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

William C. Phelps
William C. Phelps was a teacher at Camp School, Hexham, Northumberland, England in the 1950s Can any user please supply me with any details regarding his teaching at this school. Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Typing "camp school hexham" into Google brought up the Francis Frith website, which has a picture of what I believe to be the same school and some comments underneath, I think you may be as well posting on there. Let me know if this isn't the same school and I'll have a further search for you. --TammyMoet (talk) 19:19, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Simonschaim (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:07, 26 April 2013 (UTC)