Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2013 December 17

= December 17 =

Wikipedia copyrights?
What is the best place to report a site that might be mirroring Wikipedia articles without attribution? (This arose from a question on my talk page.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:00, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Everyone is free to contact the violator directly to ask for them to either stop reusing or provide attribution. The authors can also sue them. You might get help from the Creative Commons Affiliate Network. Creative Commons also maintains a list of lawyers who have expressed willingness to work for such cases here. If any WMF logos are being copied as well, then you can contact the Foundation's legal department. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:05, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * This is unfortunately common. They can be listed at Mirrors and forks. PrimeHunter (talk) 03:11, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

LOOP 610 IN HOUSTON
WHY NAME IS 610 AND NOT 910 ,810 OR 510? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.254.156.169 (talk) 07:00, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Most likely it was named sequentially, and there was already a 110, 210, 310, 410, and 510 assigned, somewhere in the US, when it was named. StuRat (talk) 09:16, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * (ec) Have a look at Interstate Highway System for general information on how numbers are attributed. Being a loop off Interstate 10, that particular beltway had to be assigned a three-digit number ending with 10 and starting with an even number (210, 410, 610 or 810). 410 is used in San Antonio. As numbers generally increase from west to east, Houston's beltway would need a higher number, thus 610. Why not 810, then ? At this point, it becomes a random choice between the two available three-digit numbers. --Xuxl (talk) 09:21, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The west-to-east part applies to two-digit numbers, not so much to three-digit. It's fine to repeat numbers in another state (in fact Interstate 610 (Louisiana) is right next door).  But I suppose it might be true enough within a single state.  --Trovatore (talk) 09:25, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * They may permit a repeat, but, I'd expect, given the choice, they would prefer to avoid it. StuRat (talk) 09:28, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, I thought of a within-state counterexample. Interstate 680 (California) is east of Interstate 880 (California). --Trovatore (talk) 09:39, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * As the above link explains, interstate loops are given three-digit numbers beginning with even numbers. Piecing this together, I-610 was one of the originally designated interstate highways in the late 1950s and early 1960s. It looks as though the original interstate plan avoided repeating interstate numbers in different states.  I-210 was assigned to a highway in California, and from the early days, the I-410 designation was planned for a San Antonio loop, so it made sense to assign I-610 to the Houston loop.   As the need for connectors, loops, and spurs outran the available numbers, it seems that a decision was made during the late 1960s to repeat interstate highways' numbers on different highways in different states, such as I-610 in Louisiana, which was built later than the Houston highway. So I think the numbering reflects an odd mix of west-to-east and chronological sequence. Marco polo (talk) 20:38, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * As to the "why not 910 or 510", that's because the odd prefixes indicate "spurs". To find out exactly why particular numbers were chosen, you might have to go back to contemporary newspapers and see if an explanation was given. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:09, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Harold Camping dead ?
−   − Is he dead today? I heard rumors. Ref: Jill Diringer on Facebook "Goodbye Harold Camping" (was 21 minutes ago @ ca. 20:15 GMT+1). Time will tell. − EDIT: HE IS DEAD, at least WP says so − --78.156.109.166 (talk) 19:54, 16 December 2013 (UTC) EDIT2: I thought it was a vandal who edited the Harold Camping article so I removed this section/question (only heard it from 2 people on 16 December and nothing in the news yesterday 16 December (at least WP, my TV, YouTube (i have no real access to news websites))), but I was right after all, so restoring my (self-)undone revision(which is THIS section)--78.156.109.166 (talk) 09:33, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, a quick search on google news turns up a number of sources that appear reliable and announce he passed away on December 15th, eg,  --Xuxl (talk) 10:04, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't worry too much. It's not the end of the world. HiLo48 (talk) 10:31, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Exactly. 2 days is nothing. Better we get it right, than rush to get it wrong. And if every death announced on Facebook was true then we'd have lost Kanye West, Will Smith, and Bill Cosby too recently. Personally i hope Bill Cosby outlives us all. Thanks ツ Jenova   20  (email) 10:40, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I got your joke, HiLo. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  12:01, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks Jack. HiLo48 (talk) 00:07, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * That rumor was already attempted to be posted here a couple of days ago. There's still nothing about it in standard sources. And since their own website says nothing about it, we had best be careful or Wikipedia will look stupid. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:42, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The alleged "press release" has the wrong URL, so it's likely a hoax. I have reverted all the updates back to Nov 23, and reported the situation at ANI. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:02, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Reported in several mainstream sources now. Rmhermen (talk) 18:55, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Breaking news, Harold Camping is still dead. μηδείς (talk) 21:55, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * They waited a couple of days before announcing it. Maybe they wanted to be sure. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:05, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd like to think they were waiting for us to get it right before putting their own reputation on the line. Thanks ツ Jenova   20  (email) 09:18, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

In-pipe heat tape
I have a drainage line from the roof which is underground, but above the frost line (yes, bad idea). As a result, it freezes up in winter and with spring rains we get flooding until it thaws. I'd like to install heat tape in the 60 foot long plastic corrugated tube to keep ice from forming. When I found the "proper" equipment, it seems to run around US$530 (I had to call for a quote), which seems extreme:. So, I'd like to use heat tape for preventing ice dams on gutters, and snake that into the tube, instead. It seems to cost about 1/10th the price:. So:

1) Why the huge price difference ?

2) What does the more expensive stuff give me ? (As near as I can figure, it's self-regulating, so it can't overheat. Is that the only diff ?)

3) What problems will I have with the cheap solution ?

Thanks for any hints. StuRat (talk) 16:55, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't know about heat tape, but there are other solutions as well. I can't think of the name, and am having no luck finding them on Menard's website, but there are big plastic drums with lots of drainage holes that can be buried below the frost line. If you're worried that it won't drain fast enough for heavy rains then you can use the existing line as an overflow. It won't have to handle nearly as much water and hopefully won't end up freezing shut at all. K ati e R  (talk) 18:29, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * French drain and dry well are two ways this is done. Rmhermen (talk) 18:49, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Nope, it's a condo and we aren't allowed to do major excavations like that. StuRat (talk) 18:35, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * “1) Why the huge price difference ?” Looking at the web site I would say its because they do the installation for you and wrap the element around the out-side of the pipe (requiring them to dig it up and rebury it) and then give you a warranty. Seems fair to me, for that amount of labour. An expensive solution though, for your problem. Addendum: “it's a condo” You did not build the condo – they did and they have provided a drainage system which is not fit for purposes. In  the small print of your title, deeds, lease,  contract or whatever you signed, it should have something about drainage. - Sue them! (whoops sorry... we can not give legal advice – see your attorney and tell him Wikipedia sent you)--Aspro (talk) 19:21, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The cheap stuff gets good reviews (I looked at the 100' version too and only one person didn't like it), so it is worth trying. I doubt it will overheat - something for this sort of application doesn't need to get hot, just stay above freezing. If your exterior outlets aren't GFCI (they should be in any somewhat-recent construction), then I would highly recommend upgrading them running a power cord through a drain pipe and plugging it in. :-) I would also try talking to someone in maintenance at the condo about the issue as well if you haven't already. Even if you know they won't fix it for you, they may have useful suggestions or know how other residents have dealt with it. K ati e R  (talk) 19:31, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The fact remains, that SR has bought a condo, which (unless it is very old) should conform to the local building codes. There should be something  that states the minimum  depth that these pipes should be buried to match the local frost line depth. It look like -to me- that the construction company may have cut corners. I would think that the  contractor's building issuance covers the first ten years for these fault to surface.--Aspro (talk) 21:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, they seriously cut corners. Originally the downspouts just dumped water right at the side of the house, which then flooded the basement.  This drainage system was added later, by the previous owner, in an attempt to redirect the water away from the house.  The condo was built in 1977. StuRat (talk) 05:37, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * As it its build dates 1977 then I guess it up to you to sort out. From the practical point of view I think there are only two options. The heat tape (snaking it down 60 ft wont be easy – you may have to tie a fishing line to the tail of a pet rat to pull it through). Alternatively, the old adage goes many hands make light work.  So, get  a lot of your mates to come around  with spades and dig the pipe out and rebury it a the recommended depth. You will probably need a new bend and some insulation at the point were it enters the ground and perhaps knock a new lower entrants into the soak away if it has a concrete lining. If you use the  heat tape solution, then remember, it takes about the same amount of  heat to melt ice as it does to boil water. That could be expensive on a 60 ft run with just a thermo switch (where the ground could be below zero, even when there is no water  run off to drain away). So perhaps a 'capacitive' water level sensor switch  in the down pipe is the answer, It  will  only power  up the cable, when water fills the lower end of the down pipe and switches off as soon as the water has gone. All my other ideas are not really practical but I was taken by the novelty of buying some Strontium-90 granules on eBay and flushing them evenly along the pipe. --Aspro (talk) 19:15, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I also thought of the nuclear solution ! Great minds think alike, but, unfortunately, so do we. StuRat (talk) 11:54, 21 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The trick to pulling line through the tube is a big wad of tissue paper. Tie a string to it and pull it through with a shop vac + duct tape or something to adapt it to the hose, or push it through with a leaf blower. I've seen plenty of cheap barely-buried corrugated tube runs for this purpose before that don't really have a good place to go other than "not next to my foundation," which is what I picture StuRat has, in which case it can't be buried deeper because the outlet can't be moved down. Of course, if it is an option then I agree with Aspro that it is the way to go - way better than having to fuss with controlling that heater line. Those plastic dry wells aren't too big either - maybe a few feet in each dimension, so it isn't a huge job depending on your condo's definition of "major excavation." K ati e R  (talk) 20:06, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, using a vac is more practical, more professional (and a lot less fun). Although, personal, I think the method sucks ;-) On a property of this age check that you have and earth leakage trip (an ordinary circuit breaker will not do) or an isolation transformer somewhere between the distribution board and the vac.--Aspro (talk) 20:56, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I dunno - I thought the leaf blower method could be fun. You just need to convince an unsuspecting volunteer that they need to "catch" it as it comes out. Of course, it won't come out until after all of the muck that has built up in a 60-foot-long downspout drain over the years... K ati e R  (talk) 18:31, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

No, we can't bury the drainage line below the frost line. That would be a major excavation, which is not allowed, and might damage the house foundation right next to it, and also it's a gravity drain, which dumps water out onto the driveway at the far end, where it then finds the nearest storm drain. And yes, I agree that this is about the most incompetent design for a drainage system I can imagine, but I'm stuck with it.

As far as getting the heat tape in the tube, I have a nice long fish tape which should get the job done. I already did a dry run with just the fish tape. When ready to install, I will tie the end of the fish tape to the end of the heat tape, and pull the heat tape through. I don't think the air pressure method would work, since it's always wet down there, in the corrugations, and any paper would soon become a soggy mess.

UPDATE: I bought the cheap $50 one designed for preventing ice dams on the roof. It lacks a timer, thermostat, or power level dial, but is 300 watts, which should certainly get the job done. I hooked it up to a dimmer switch so I can vary the power level from the garage. Unfortunately, the dimmer switch lacks a ground/earth. How important is that in such a system ?

Also, the pipe freezing up in winter isn't much of an issue, as there won't be much rain then either, so flooding isn't a problem. Where the problem comes in is spring, when the tube is still frozen and we get major rains and snow melt from the roof. So, I think I'll only turn it on then, and only at low power, as I don't want to melt the plastic tube and also don't want to waste all the energy. Sound like a plan ? StuRat (talk) 11:51, 21 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Let us take this one step at a time: That would be  a major excavation. You are trying to correct a fault in your drainage system, of a  condo that you own . This is something like a mitigating circumstance. Prohibitions on  major excavation  in this sense, don't come into it. “Any paper would soon become a soggy mess”. Use some old foam rubber and cut it into a ball, (with a sharp razor). It conforms to the shape of the tube ( use a vac not a blower). “The dimmer switch lacks a ground/earth. How important is that in such a system ?” Do you live in this condo all year round or is it just a vacation retreat? Dimmer switch - 300 watts. Most domestic dimer switches handle a lot less than 300 watts.  “The dimmer switch lacks a ground/earth”: You may have the sense  to not to  touch things but a kid could come along and get zapped (the parents will then sue you). Go back to basics. You are entitled to bury the pipe deeper to protect your property. Using the heat tape solution, you  need a earth leakage trip installed and a means to ensure it is not on when you don't need it.  A better solution might be  to buy a villa in Spain and live there. You can't drink the tap water however,  nor anything like that, but one doesn’t suffer the problems of freezing (the wine is also cheap and the food is good there). The language is also very easy to learn. It is a bit like BASIC but without any subroutines.--Aspro (talk) 00:22, 22 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Some responses:


 * A) Regarding excavations. I talked to the condo association, and the outdoor areas are considered common property, and thus any major changes must be approved by them, and they won't approve anything like this, as it could undermine foundations.  The tube also goes under a sidewalk, so we'd need to tear that up and replace it.  So, we're probably talking thousands of dollars.


 * B) I will keep the foam rubber idea in mind, in case the fish tape solution fails.


 * C) This dimmer switch is rated for 500 watts.


 * D) The heat tape will be unplugged when I don't want it on, so that eliminates the need for the "earth leakage trip", right ?


 * E) As far as lacking a ground, I assume if it was damaged down in the tube, that any leakage would go through the plastic directly to the earth, and not harm anyone. So then, the only danger is if the portion of the cord above ground is frayed, right ? StuRat (talk) 03:12, 22 December 2013 (UTC)


 * OK, we seemed to have covered most points. The last remaining is “major excavation” and the sidewalk. The condo's foundations will (I hope) be at least four foot deep. A small trench open for a couple of days is not going to compromise the foundations. When Underpinning is performed on  foundations, they get  to be exposed for days upon end. Yet, understandably your condo association may require, that  the only work of this type to be undertaken, is by contractors that have liability insurance. I have nothing against the heat tape solution and  if properly installed it is probably the cheapest option. However, the side walk problem and liability insurance can be over come, if you employ a contractor to use a pneumatic mole to lay a new pipe run. Here is a little animation to explain:.  Should you take this route, then keep the receipts and guarantees, so that when you come to sell the condo, you can use it as a selling point.  “Buy my condo (at this very inflated price) and you won't get surprised  by finding serous damp  problems... because I have invested in a proper drainage system. How many other condos that you have look at so far have?. Are you wondering why they want to sell them off cheap?"(again, to justifying your asking price). I think you may have enough info now to make up your mind - good luck.--Aspro (talk) 21:39, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

article on syberjet SJ30 -- possible spec error
I believe the rate of climb in the specifications is incorrect by a large amount -- it is listed as 1000 feet per minute, a rate of climb associated with small single-engine propeller aircraft, not a twin jet-engine private plane like the syberjet SJ30 -- I believe it should by more like 3000 to 4000 feet per minute -- thanks for your attention          warfd  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warfd (talk • contribs) 18:59, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree that 1000 fpm is low and it could have been a typo even though there is a reference to a Jane's.  The unreliable sources that I can find online right now vary from 3,600 to 4,000 fpm though.  Dismas |(talk) 22:17, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

How to get enough food in hotels/restaurants?
I eat a lot, so I guess athletes must have the same problem as I have. There must be a simple solution to the problem of getting a low fat high carb 4000 Kcal per day diet when on vacation, but I haven't figured out exactly how (although I have made some progress compared in recent years). The problem starts at breakfast when I get extra bread for myself. Sometimes the hotel staff patrolling breakfast will tell me that this is not allowed, but then they don't serve lunch until 12 which is way too late for me. Usually this isn't a problem, and I will eat ok. until dinner (I prepare lunch and my second lunch myself from food I buy at some local supermarket). At dinner things typically are not ideal. E.g. a typical dinner for me would be 300 grams of rice or pasta or 1 kg of potatoes, 500 grams of vegetables and some meat. But there must be enough fat in the food. I try to deal with that by ordering fried vegetables but usually they bake the vegetables in too little fat. Now I could, of course, add some fatty sauce but then the problem is that I don't know how much fat I'm getting in total and if it is too much and I become sick, I won't be able to eat anything at all for a while, which would be a big problem.

Typically what happens after several days is that I will start to feel hungry for most of the day. After returning home it takes about a week before this goes away completely. Count Iblis (talk) 21:22, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Restaurant, or is there some other question hiding in there? μηδείς (talk) 21:53, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Uhmm. Know the feeling – half way through the night and I'm suddenly wide awake and hungry again and I can't speak the local language. What I found useful, was discovering the 'real' food triangle. Some foods release their  calories too quickly (like potatoes, pasta white rice etc) leaving one hungry soon after.  Not much good though in a hotel with a limited menu. The paleolithic diet has less energy density but leaves one feeling sated for longer.  Is staying at home an option?--Aspro (talk) 22:15, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, if the issue is eating at a strange hour, pack something dense like peanut butter, chocolate and cheese. I do it whenever on a trip when I am unsure of my meal schedule. μηδείς (talk) 23:56, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * It seems like the basic problem is wanting to eat more than usual without having to pay more than usual. Otherwise the obvious solution is to eat an extra meal. Looie496 (talk) 23:42, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * You don't need 4000Kcal a day however much exercise you're getting. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:48, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * That's not true, a large person doing hard physical labor all day can easily need that much. So can a person with a metabolic problem such as an overactive thyroid. Looie496 (talk) 00:06, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Cyclists in the Tour de France need about 6000 kcal per day, on some days (mountain stages) they can burn more than 9000 kcal. Ssscienccce  (talk) 00:58, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Back when I was seriously hiking, 3500 kcal per day was enough to keep me from losing weight. --Carnildo (talk) 03:25, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the info. The OP did say it was when he was on vacation. Unless his vacation is an intensive cycling tour? He distinguishes himself from athletes. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:03, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * All-you-can eat restaurants/buffets are the obvious choice. They are a good deal for big eaters.  Or, even at normal restaurants, they sometimes have an all-you-can-eat item.  For example, I think IHOP has an all-you-can-eat pancake special.  As for eating at hotels, look for one with all-you-can-eat breakfast bar.


 * However, unless you are in some strange circumstance, 4000 kcal/day sounds quite unhealthy. I'd suggest eating lots of things which are filling, but have few calories, like rice cakes and popcorn with without butter.  You also might be hungry because you aren't getting enough nutrients, so be sure to eat your veggies and maybe take vitamin pills. StuRat (talk) 05:48, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * You also seem overanxious about the amount of fat you are getting or not getting. Potatoes, vegetables and meat in sauce is a balanced dinner, and it's probably better to have the veg steamed rather than fried. You don't say where you're travelling but if it's in Europe then you could have a starter and cheese and/or a dessert, which would add carbs and fats, possibly also some fruit and veg content. I don't think it is Europe though, or you would be able to get enough bread at breakfast time. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:11, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Judith... your metabolism/preferences are not [quite apparently] like everyone else's. Quit trying to dictate to the OP that he/she's consuming enough calories as is, and/or that instead they need to effectively just carb load. As for sources of cheap, unperishable protein... canned tuna/fish, energy bars and shakes (gotta be careful about what's in them), nuts. These diets aren't really pleasurable but they'll satiate you. You should go read some athletically-minded forums for ideas. Your question is a bit more opinion/hunch than ref-desk. Shadowjams (talk) 06:27, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * What I've said is in line with normal nutritional advice, e.g. NHS and the French health service but now I think this whole thread is much too close to medical advice and the OP should be referred to a dietician or doctor. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:07, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies so far. At home I have no problems, I eat a healthy diet (I do check from time to time by measuring everything I eat and then input that on various online diet advice webpages to check if the total fat, protein etc. intake relative to the total calorie intake is ok.) Only when I'm away on vacation are there problems, because of the total quantity of food I eat. It's not a matter of money, I do eat pretty much my stomach full as I do at home, but if there isn't enough fat in the diet for a few days in a row, you will start to feel hungry all day. Last year, it was a bit worse than this time. Then on the last day I had ordered more potatoes but even after eating that and having a completely full stomach I was feeling extremely hungry, as if I had eaten nothing at all. In the end, this is a simple matter of asking that the vegetables be fried with 50 grams of fat but then not getting that 50 grams of fat with the vegetables.

Anyway, since having arrived back home a week ago and eating my regular diet, the problems have gone away as expected. I did lose some weight, about half a kg, my BMI is now slightly above the underweight threshold. Count Iblis (talk) 23:10, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I suggest you see a doctor about this, as not being able to keep your weight from dropping while on the road is quite unusual, and might be a sign of a medical problem. StuRat (talk) 06:44, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I did that 20 years ago when I collapsed a few times. Extensive medical tests at the hospital yielded no obvious problems. Since that time I've gradually learned to live with the fact that I need to eat a lot more than most people. Also, this only works well if I exercise a lot. It could be a medical problem but I tend to think of this as a medical deviation that makes me superior to most people (most people cannot run for 50 minutes, most people do not have resting heart rates below 40 bpm). Count Iblis (talk) 22:52, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, perhaps your digestive system is quite inefficient, which isn't a medical problem, just an expensive annoyance. Places like GNC (store) sell "bulk up formula" which is designed to provide all the calories and nutrients bodybuilders need.  I wonder if that would help you. StuRat (talk) 12:06, 21 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Just a thought. You may have tests 20 years ago but you have not said what they were. Your quack's err... doctor's first priority, is to discount things life threatening, after that, somethings like 'intestinal worms' etc. Diagnostic tests have come a long way since then. If one talks (not you)  about a craving of  fats. That may indicate a lowered Hydrochloric Acid output. Spend a little bit of time to write down your food preferences and other things and perhaps ask to see a dietician. Medicine is a big field and if a consultant doesn’t find one fits into his field, he can say  “ I can't find anything wrong (in my field of expertise)” . Yet, someone in another field might say ah ha!. This doesn’t mean you have to go on a lifetimes course of medication, instead it mans, you have a 'diagnosis'. So when you have to journey out for holidays, weddings and business trips etc.,   you can  authoritatively state: your need a certain diet for medical reasons. That cuts ice .  Then you can eat whatever satisfies you. --Aspro (talk) 22:38, 22 December 2013 (UTC)