Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2013 January 27

= January 27 =

How hunter-gatherers spend most of their free time
What hunter-gatherers do during most of their free time? Is it playing games, singing, storytelling, or dancing? It makes you wonder. Does anyone know? Mattdillon87 (talk) 01:05, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Not a lot of them left, and I am not sure whether the remaining ones are really representative of hunter-gatherers in general and specifically historically (which is what I assume is what you are interested in). --Saddhiyama (talk) 01:09, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * There's war, sex, and playing cards. For the first two, see Before the Dawn by Nicholas Wade. μηδείς (talk) 01:52, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * doodling. -- Jayron  32  04:41, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, their cave paintings tell us something. They didn't paint dancing or singing.  They tended to paint animals and hunters.  So, it might be reasonable to assume they told stories about hunting. StuRat (talk) 04:46, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure how you'd paint singing. However, it's quite clear that ancient European hunter-gatherer cultures did depict dancing: . AlexTiefling (talk) 10:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Interesting choice of words, Alex. μηδείς (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't you paint singers with their mouths open, with maybe some lines radiating from them ? BTW, that link doesn't show the pic they describe as showing dancing.  Do you have a pic ? StuRat (talk) 08:03, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

This will answer your question. According to "Frank Hole and Kent Kent V. Flannery. The Prehistory of Southwestern Iran: A Preliminary Report", "No group on earth has more leisure time than hunters and gatherers, who spend it primarily on games, conversation and relaxing." Rebel Yeh (talk) 06:05, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Marn Grook HiLo48 (talk) 06:10, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Check the full answer you got at the Straight Dope Message Board, where you posted the identical question. --NellieBly (talk) 07:34, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I am not sure how they would have painted singing, but they certainly painted what looked like dancing and prancing. μηδείς (talk) 19:02, 27 January 2013‎


 * Doesn't look like dancing to me, just standing or walking. StuRat (talk) 03:09, 29 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Turns out you're wrong on both counts, StuRat. Primitive man preferentially painted in those portions of caves which provided the best reverb for singing.  Music, The Brain, And Ecstasy, Jourdain, p 305. μηδείς (talk) 02:44, 29 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Sounds iffy to me. What part of a cave doesn't reverberate ?  Extremely narrow tunnels ?  Well, those aren't good spots for painting and viewing paintings, either. StuRat (talk) 03:09, 29 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I would think they might spend their leisure time reading Field and Stream. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:54, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

@ StuRat, really, just read the sources and study the science; all cave paintings are attributed and dated to behaviorally modern humans and music and dance are among the human universals. μηδείς (talk) 04:13, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * See Category:Petroglyphs in the United States, many or most of which were created by hunter-gatherers. Nyttend (talk) 21:45, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Average number of former senators?
I heard today on the radio a US senator was retiring. I imagined he would still be called Senator as an honorific. Then I wondered how many people that actually applied to at any one time. There are 100 sitting senators. Do we have a list of living ex-senators, or a way to make that calculation? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 01:56, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:WHAAOE. See the list at List_of_living_former_United_States_Senators RudolfRed (talk) 02:10, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, of course. 167 is quite a truckload.  I had suspected it would be fewer than sitting senators. μηδείς (talk) 02:40, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Why? The Senate isn't a lifetime appointment in the US; and if you look at the list of Senators who have died in office, there have been a total of 298 of 'em, out of a total of 1945 senators so far. So we end up with a lot of ex-senators at any given time. --jpgordon:==( o ) 20:51, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Jeez, it was just a gut feeling, damn. μηδείς (talk) 23:57, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * A nice cup of tea sometimes helps that. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:34, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Or a Maalox. I note that even just in Illinois there are 6 living former Senators (the list "as of" date is old, but all 6 are still living). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:16, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * All in jail, perhaps save one, presumably. μηδείς (talk) 03:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Cannon Rate of Fire
I guess that all of you must be very well educated. Beacuse none of you know what civil war that I was talking about. So i will explain to all of you educated fools what I mean. The only Civil War that I have ever been a buff of was the CIVIL WAR that was fought during the years of 1861 th 1865. I am not interested in any other civil war. All the other wars that you are all talking about were not civil wars, they were wars to see who would rule. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.220.146.161 (talk) 05:09, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Now that you've told us what years, would you like to tell us what country? RudolfRed (talk) 05:25, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Is there another civil war aside from the American, which went from 1861 to 1865? As for the OP, "none of you know what civil war that I was talking about" is a) incorrect as most figured it was probably the US one and b) odd to have such an uncivil comment about the civil war. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:33, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * There's certainly no reason to reopen this incivility to add OR nonsense after it. The OP's got his answer and if he has more he can ask them politely. μηδείς (talk) 04:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I will repeat my answer from above: :It appears the rate of fire was usually 12 rounds per hour normally for sustained barrages, perhaps 4 rounds a minute in dire emergencies. More than 1 round in 2 minute was sometimes a court-martial offense (either for wasting ammunition or for using up your supply quickly so you could withdraw and some other gunners would have to be in harm's way). Rmhermen (talk) 16:36, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I question the claim that an artillerist firing too fast was a "court martial offense," and that the authorities would have greatly preferred to have the opposing force overrun and capture the battery. Balderdash! An extra dose of canister, fired by a zealous battery, might well have broken a charge which would otherwise have gained the opposition a victory. Refs advising re-enactors do not advise us as to actual US Civil War practice. The second ref, from the Civil War, mentions three rounds per minute when canister is being fired. Edison (talk) 01:46, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't there be a risk of overheating if the cannon was fired too rapidly? Looie496 (talk) 05:47, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Edison, Rmhermen said "sometimes", not 'always', and he did put some sources on the table. I don't see why disobeying orders to conserve ammunition for when it is needed couldn't or shouldn't result in a court martial.  Rapidly firing canister to break up an infantry charge is a very different situation from wasting powder and shot on an enemy far across the field so that one's gun can withdraw prematurely to (relative) safety.
 * I happened across this order as a serendipitous Google find. While it was issued to mortars and not cannon, it certainly shows that artillerymen received explicit orders regarding rate of fire under at least some conditions. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:16, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

"Mozart's Trumpet Concerto in A-flat major"
What is going on with this video? It's a transcription of the K. 314 Oboe Concerto in C, but what was the motive behind turning it into a trumpet concerto? It can't really be a reconstruction of some original version of the work, as I doubt Mozart would write a substantial work with movements based in very flat keys such as A-flat and D-flat major – he only appears to have used A♭ in K. 308 (a song), discounting two very small pieces in the London Sketchbook, and doesn't seem to have used D♭ at all. Double sharp (talk) 05:58, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The motive was someone felt like doing it, and wanted to see how it would turn out? -- Jayron  32  06:10, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Mozart wrote a fair bit in C minor and E-flat major, but rarely went beyond two sharps or three flats. There's a symphony and some well-known concertos in A major, but nothing I can think of in F-sharp minor, E major or C-sharp minor. So, A-flat and Mozart are rarely ever found in the same sentence; although I know of at least one sonata movement in F minor.
 * Trumpet concerto contains a "Selected list". However, it does reveal that Trumpet Concerto (Arutiunian) is written in A-flat.  I know that the trumpet and the horn seem to prefer D major (2 sharps) and E-flat major (3 flats), but I've never quite understood why not B-flat major (2 flats) or A major (3 sharps).  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:06, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Looking a bit harder using the search function at the DME Mozarteum site (only including relatively substantial works):


 * E major
 * K. 261
 * K. 542
 * K. 494a (unfinished, but very beautiful)


 * F minor
 * K. 594
 * K. 608
 * K. 519


 * F-sharp minor
 * K. 488, second movement (cheating, perhaps, but there is nothing else)


 * G-sharp minor(!!!)
 * K. deest (not substantial, but included for the key alone)


 * A-flat major
 * K. 308
 * K. Anh. 205 (probably spurious, though)

Double sharp (talk) 13:35, 2 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The G-sharp minor piece is K.519, listed above under F minor.  I don't know what "deest" means.  The F minor piece I had in mind is the Adagio movement from the Piano Sonata in F, K.280/189e.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  19:39, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry! Wrong link. Fixed now. Double sharp (talk) 02:28, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. What does "deest" mean?  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  02:51, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It means that the work does not appear in the catalogue. Double sharp (talk) 03:01, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Ta. Interesting that that G-sharp minor fragment is notated with 4 sharps rather than 5, and the A-sharps are hard coded as accidentals. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  03:07, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It's also interesting how he appears not to have learned about double sharps yet when he wrote this. Double sharp (talk) 06:27, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Non-Chinese reviews of the Great Wall Haval H5 SUV?
According to the Wikipedia article, this SUV has been sold both in Australia and the EU. However, I cannot find any articles or reviews of this vehicle from those markets. Can someone please help me find some sources for performance reviews of the Great Wall Haval H5 (or H6) SUV that are not Chinese? The Masked Booby (talk) 06:43, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd expect it to have been "badge-engineered" with a different name in those markets. Maybe that's why you can't find it.  Our article says that it's called "X240" in export markets.  A google search on "X240 SUV review" produced a ton of English-language reviews.  Beware though, the H3 and H5/6 SUV's are "different" vehicles in China - but in Europe and Australia, all three are called "X240" - so it's hard to distinguish which version is being discussed.  SteveBaker (talk) 16:33, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks Steve. I'll pay close attention to the article dates, that should clarify it a bit. The Masked Booby (talk) 22:11, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Here's a Malaysian review: . StuRat (talk) 08:14, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Bee Gees
I am a fan of the Bee Gees. In articles - it reads that they resided at Redcliffe in Brisbane. They may have moved there at sometime after arrival in Australia. I feel they ' didn't grow up ' in Redcliffe - formative years were at Cribb Island. To my knowledge the family actually lived at Cribb Island - aka ' Cribby ' which was near Nudgee Beach - Queensland. Barry actually ' graduated ' from Cribb Island School class in 1961. Maurice, Barry and Robin Gibb were mentioned as also attending Cribb Island School. In an article it reads " The children of an English migrant family, in the late 1950's' sold soft drinks at Redcliffe Speedway between races and promoted sales by their singing act. " Another article mentions " Archerfield Raceway " whether this is a promotional name, I do not know.Archerfiled is many k's from Redcliffe. Cribby Island kids, known as " Cribby Kids ' were never well off - a poor area. Cribby Island was last in the Street Directory in 1981, the airport having taken the land over. When you have time oh volunteers :O) would you please clarify a few of these items. PS. We never hear about Lesley Gibb born 1945. Hugh Gibbs died in 1991, where did he die and where interred. With thanks Anne Morrisson Gumpie Queensland  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.250.220 (talk) 07:37, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * We do have some information in the articles on Andy Gibb, Barry Gibb, and Maurice Gibb. You are welcome to add this to the main article.  It would be even better if you could find a reference that mentions Cribb Island.  Rather strangely, this web-history (written by a member of the family?) doesn't mention Cribb Island.  There are a couple of mentions of sister Lesley in the articles on her brothers, but she is probably not sufficiently notable to have her own article.    D b f i r s   08:54, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * According to find-a-grave, Hughie Gibb is in Forest Lawn in Hollywood: ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)