Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2013 January 7

= January 7 =

Most popular leisure-time activity in Switzerland in 1920
What was the most popular leisure-time activity in Switzerland in 1920? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.234.170.206 (talk) 01:51, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Making little Swiss people. -- Jayron  32  02:01, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * For outdoor activities, I imagine winter sports like skiing and skating. StuRat (talk) 04:01, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * "Winter sports" is a wide category, but my impression is that in actual snowy/icy regions most such activities were, until somewhat into the 20th century, just ways of getting around, and that it was (largely Anglo-saxon) holidaying foreigners who transformed them into "sports." I'd therefore be cautious about assuming any were native "leisure activities" in the Switzerland of 1920. The OP might want to click through the link above to the individual sports listed, and read up their histories. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 84.21.143.150 (talk) 12:31, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't see them being ways if getting around being incompatible with them also being leisure-time activities. Back when horses were the primary mode of transportation, people still went horseback-riding for fun, too. StuRat (talk) 19:48, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, but there's a big difference between cross-country skiing (originally a means of getting around) and downhill skiing (originally a pointless entertainment for British people with more money than sense). I think I'm right in saying that skiing-as-transport was a Scandinavian thing anyway. Alansplodge (talk) 00:22, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I've done cross-country skiing for fun and exercise, so it's not just about transportation. StuRat (talk) 00:25, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Indeed. But the sort of skiing done in Switzerland in the 1920s was downhill by wealthy tourists. Alansplodge (talk) 09:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * But didn't the Swiss already have cross-country skis for getting around in winter ? If so, it seems reasonable to think they might have occasionally taken unnecessary trips with them, in winter, just as people sometimes go for walks when they don't need to, in summer. StuRat (talk) 21:38, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Try reading the local paper - several are available online. For example the Gazette de Lausanne for 1 Apr 1920 is available here.  Read the advertisements too - they're probably more useful than the news in answering your question.  Zoonoses (talk) 04:51, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Skiing. Rebel Yeh (talk) 07:41, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Swiss people in 1920 were a lot less affluent than they are today, and most would not have had much money for "leisure activities". As such, the top leisure activities of most Swiss people would have been the following: playing with one's children; for men, chatting with friends in the local pub over a beer or a glass of wine; for women, chatting with friends in one another's kitchens with baked sweets and some kind of beverage; mostly but not exclusively for men, fishing in a local lake or river; for women, doing some kind of creative craft such as embroidery; for men, doing a creative craft such as woodcarving. Marco polo (talk) 17:10, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Rental car keys
I recently had to rent a car. The key ring, which was permanently closed, had both keys and both fobs on it. (along with the rental company's id tag with make/model/license plate number/etc) Why do they do this? It's effectively only one key now and if I had a second driver, they wouldn't be able to keep a key for themselves. Also, I had this huge mass of plastic and metal to stuff into my pocket. Why not keep a key at the rental agency? Is the idea here like when businesses tape a spoon or other item onto their pens so that people don't stick them in their pocket and walk off with them? Or when the key for the bathroom at a gas station has a huge stick chained to it so that it's not lost? Dismas |(talk) 03:48, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * They probably didn't think it through. They have all these keys for one vehicle, and they want to keep them together, so that's what works best for them.  They never thought of it from the customer's perspective.  I might be tempted to break out the bolt cutters (although they might charge a thousand dollar fine for damaging their 10 cent key ring).


 * I had a similar silly key practice imposed on me, this time by the manufacturer of the car. They provided separate keys to unlock the passenger compartment and the trunk, thus allowing you to give only your passenger compartment key to a valet, and keep them from fishing through your trunk for valuables.  Good idea.  Then they added a button in the passenger compartment to unlock the trunk. :-) StuRat (talk) 03:59, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Does your trunk-release lever have a lock on it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:53, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * That was an old car, and I don't believe it had a lock, no. My current car does have a lock on the trunk release button, but only has a single key for both passenger compartment and trunk.  This doesn't make sense, either, as any valet will have the passenger compartment key, which is also the key to the trunk, and unlocks the button, as well.  So, that lock accomplishes nothing.  StuRat (talk) 19:50, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * My current vehicle has two keys. Both of them open the doors and operate the ignition, but only one works on the trunk. I do not understand how this is done, though.  → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 15:11, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * That could be just mechanical, with an extra (or missing) groove for the trunk lock. You should be able to see the difference by a careful comparison of the grooves on the keys.  My last few car keys have had transponders that have to send a matched radio signal to the ignition system before the car will start.  I was thus able to make copy keys that would open the mechanical locks but would not start the car (useful for regular passengers).  Some high-end cars (not mine!) have valet keys that limit engine revs via the transponder, as well as not fitting the trunk (boot).    D b f i r s   19:19, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * For my car (a MINI Cooper) - there is a software patch you can get installed that limits engine RPM and the distance that the car can be driven when in "valet parking" mode. SteveBaker (talk) 21:57, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I once lost the key to a rental car (long, bad, bad story!) - the rental company told me that they had no idea where the spare key for the car was because the vehicle goes from one rental office to another almost randomly and there is no means for them to get the spare key to go along with it. Since they do eventually sell those cars - and because the keys have become quite expensive - it does make sense to keep them all fixed together like that so that they stay with the car at all times - even though it does seem kinda nonsensical. SteveBaker (talk) 21:57, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I have an even worse car key related horror story. Somebody bought a car from the dealership, then, when it ran low on gas, they went to a gas station, only to discover it had a device on the gas cap to lock it shut, and prevent siphoning, which the dealer failed to remove when it was sold.  The dealership was now closed, and they didn't have the gas needed to get there, in any case.  I now give cars an extremely thorough check when I pick them up from the dealership, looking for this and any other problems, before I accept the car. StuRat (talk) 00:31, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

KHS Hall, Taiwan
This is just a quick question. Does anyone know the address of the KHS Hall in Taipei, Taiwan? I tried searching online and on Google Maps, but I get few relevant hits, although it appears to be in Luzhou. There appear to not even be any images of it online (or at least of the exterior). Also, what does "KHS" mean in its name? Is it related to a Taiwanese music company named Kong Hsue Sheh? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:39, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * According to its website, the address it 新北市蘆洲區中山二路162號2樓, which translates to 2nd Floor, No. 162, Zhongshan 2nd Road, Luzhou District, New Taipei City. Here are some (small) images of the exterior. KHS is short for "Kong Hsue She" (gongxueshe), 功学社 or 攻學社, see here. —Kusma (t·c) 13:09, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Nudity questions
I recently attended my first ever nude photography workshop. I was there with eight other photographers, including the workshop instructor. There were four nude models, all female, presumably 25 to 30 years old. As the workshop cost 240 €, I don't think I'm attending another one quite soon. This brought to my mind several questions:
 * 1) I now have almost 900 photographs of the models. Assuming I get the models' permission, should I upload some of them to Wikimedia Commons? I have no intention of selling them to commercial parties.
 * 2) How much do female nude models generally charge from photoshoots, per day? Keep in mind I'm not talking about top quality Playboy models here, but about models you'd expect to see at nude photography workshops at education institutions or photography associations.
 * 3) One of the models was quite thin and small-breasted. This brought to my mind a question: What exactly can a woman do to control the size of her breasts, apart from surgery? Or is there anything at all?
 * 4) Last, a rather silly question: It came to my mind that humans are the only species that normally wears clothes. Had any other species developed photography, the workshop wouldn't have been any special. When exactly did humans start wearing clothes? Is it known in any way?  J I P  &#124; Talk 19:08, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * For last question, see Clothing -- Jayron  32  19:32, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I added numbers to your Q's, for ease of response:


 * 3) Lots of things. How much a woman weighs disproportionately effects breast size.  And, being mostly a reservoir of fat, the percentage of body fat is particularly important.  Thus, athletes will often have smaller breasts.  Hormones can directly affect breast size, and are often given to transgender (male -> female) individuals.  There are also a host of products claiming to increase breast size, most of which are probably scams.  Then there are many products to increase the appearance of breast size, many of which work well, like push-up bras, padded bras, etc. StuRat (talk) 20:01, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * For the first question, the models probably signed a contract and a release form setting out the terms under which they modeled. You should check with your instructor or whoever arranged the workshop to ask about those terms. They may not allow electronic distribution of the models' images. Marco polo (talk) 19:58, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * (ec) For question #3: Women's breasts get larger toward the end of pregnancy...and they typically only reduce in size by a lesser amount once the child is weaned...so I suppose that's one way (albeit a little drastic!)
 * For question #1: You might also want to check the terms & conditions of the workshop itself - they might easily have imposed some restrictions on what you can do with the images. (I kinda doubt that WikiCommons needs any more photos of naked people - that area of photography seems more than usually complete!) SteveBaker (talk) 20:04, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The quality of nude photos on commons isn't always very high, though, so photos taken at a professional workshop will probably be above average quality. The problem with nude photos is that there really isn't much variety. Once you have photos of a man and a woman from a handful of angles, you've pretty much got all you need for our purposes - despite what certain parts of the media may want us to think, we all look pretty much the same with our clothes off... --Tango (talk) 23:48, 9 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The amount paid varies a lot from place to place and model to model. For standard "we have artists who want to learn to draw" nude modeling, it's apparently not very much, like $50 to $100 for a session (typically an hour or so, though of course that varies as well). If you're good at it (and some people are definitely better than others, physical appearance aside), you can make a little more and/or get get a few more sessions a week, but it would not be something anyone could live off of. I've seen sessions of nude photography where payment is essentially getting a (professional) set of the pictures, with no cash changed hands at all. Supply and demand, I guess. Matt Deres (talk) 20:11, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Model agency scams
Odd then that many modeling agencies demand fees from impressionable young women to take a portfolio of photographs. Astronaut (talk) 17:17, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * How is that odd? A lot of people have an inflated sense of their own attractiveness.  Charging such people weeds out the unserious ones.  People who are attractive enough actually to make money modelling are usually recruited by agents or agencies willing to pay for their photographs for them. μηδείς (talk) 21:28, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * It's a scam. They tell any woman they could be a model if they just had a portfolio done, and collect their fee, knowing full well that person just wasted their money. StuRat (talk) 21:34, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * How is it a scam? The model pays for a portfolio of pictures, the agency takes the pictures and collects the cash.  It seems like a straightforward business transaction, the agency provides the service they are contracted for, and the model gets the pictures they wanted taken.  It would only be a scam if the agency didn't provide the service they claimed (i.e. they never took the pictures, they just took the payment and skipped town) or if the service was a front for nefarious purposes (i.e. as a front for pornography; getting women into compromising situations and taking advantage of them).  However, there's no problem with an agency providing pictures for someone who pays for them, even if they stand little chance of working as a professional model.  -- Jayron  32  21:39, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * It's a scam because while there are legitimate photo studios where the client pays for the photographer's skill, and legitimate model agencies which pay for the model's features and skills, the 'businesses' under discussion falsely claim to be, or to provide access to, the latter, while actually operating more like the former. And I'm not sure it's good for the market - the scam agencies deprive the legitimate photographers of business while harming the reputation of the genuine agencies. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:48, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The scam is that they misrepresent the chances of the person becoming a model as a result of having their pictures taken, so that it looks like a good investment, when it is actually a poor investment. It's really no different than if a company said their stock's average return rate was much higher than it really is, thus inducing you to buy.  StuRat (talk) 21:52, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, just because a young woman enters into one of these transactions in the deluded belief that she will next month be the latest "supermodel", does not make the arrangement a scam. It all depends on exactly what services the agency is offering for the money it charges.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  21:54, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe it also depends on whether they make false statements. If they claim 95% of their clients went on to become professional models, when none did, and this can be proven, they may be open to charges of fraud. StuRat (talk) 00:25, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I separated this to its own section because it has deviated off the topic of nude photography workshops a bit now. J I P &#124; Talk 05:59, 9 January 2013 (UTC)