Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2013 July 2

= July 2 =

Car speaker replacement
I'm trying to replace a cracked car speaker with a comparable speaker (not an exact replacement though). What figures do I need to be concerned about matching? It's not some esoteric design, it's run off a central amplifier (no individualized amps for each speaker). I know the OHMS rating, and the wattage, and its size. Is this enough to find a suitable replacement? It doesn't have to be perfect, I just don't want it blow a fuse or fry the sound system. Shadowjams (talk) 01:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * As long as you have the wattage, the impedance (ohms), and the size matched, it will be a safe replacement. The only other questions are matters of taste (e.g., frequency response, distortion). -- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 17:35, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It's also easier, and often possible, to replace with one that's physically the same in terms of mounting, (i.e. number of mounting screws and distance between them, etc.), depth, etc. Depth can especially be a bear, if you are replacing a door speaker which might be shallow to clear the window mechanism, and try to install a better quality speaker which will generally protrude further backwards. Anyway, without being an ad-supported site, I'll tell you my OR and that of many others suggests contacting www.Crutchfield.com, whose mobile sound department has been compiling specs of vehicles and sound systems since before there was an internet, and what fits what. If there is any physical or wiring adapters necessary, they will have it also. Note that you don't necessarily have to buy from them if it turns out there's nothing special about your setup, although their prices and service are pretty good. Gzuckier (talk) 17:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

car insurance for elderly non-driver
In the US, my elderly mother no longer drives, but she has a car and has insurance on it that seems relatively expensive. She hasn't driven for over a year and doesn't intend to drive any more. The car is seldom used - maybe 1,000 to 2,000 miles per year, tops. It is driven a little by other members of the family and by people who are running errands for her. Is there a cheaper type of insurance for this type of car and non-driver? Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 02:21, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * She may not need insurance at all if she does not drive. The folks driving the car should have their own insurance to cover themselves when they drive.  This is not legal advice, of course.  You should talk to several different insurance companies and see what they say.  Do you have insurance yourself?  If so, ask your agent for advice.  Perhaps a small liabiity policy to protect herself is all that is needed?  RudolfRed (talk) 05:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It might be better to have one of the other drivers as the primary driver on the insurance (whether this is possible without them owning the car will depend on jurisdiction, and I don't know the US). Work out who would be cheapest of the people who actually drive it, and get the insurance in their name.  A 30-40 year old in good health is going to be a better insurance risk than an elderly lady. MChesterMC (talk) 08:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Most states (I know Virginia, Georgia and Texas) require that if the vehicle has a current registration, then the owner must have insurance or pay an uninsured fee. Check with your local department of motor vehicles (DMV). --  Gadget850talk 10:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's right and this is in one of those states. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 12:40, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Talk to the insurance agent - there are all sorts of discounts they may be able to apply. I use my car less than 5000 miles a year, and get a great rate because of that. Depending on where she lives, the standards for minimum insurance will vary. My car isn't worth enough for me to pay for collision coverage - if it gets smashed up it will stay that way until I pay to fix it or just replace the car. That saves a bunch too. If she has the savings to cover it, a higher deductible plan will have lower rates. Let the agent know that she doesn't drive it - they'll know if the insurance must be under her name, but they also may let you name primary drivers and base the rates off of them instead of her, even if it is in her name. 209.131.76.183 (talk) 12:12, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * You should definitely (I think urgently) talk to an insurance agent, not just because you want a lower price, but because what you're doing now might not actually stand up to scrutiny. When you insure a vehicle, one person is typically the habitual driver (they're the insured party) and you may name other people as additional drivers. The insurance company assumes the first driver its the habitual user, and calculates the risk based on that person driving the vehicle most of the time. It sounds as if, right now, you've told the insurer that your mother is driving the car most of the time, but that's not the case.  They may well consider that a misrepresentation sufficient to allow them to deny a claim made when one of the other named drivers has an accident. A friend of mine had a claim driving his brother's car, of which he was a named driver - the insurer tried to refuse the claim, saying he was really the habitual user and that the insurance had thus been deceptively obtained.  So if the insurer isn't fully aware of who is driving the car, you may really not have insurance at all.   An agent can advise you about pool and group insurances (like the kind companies have) where there genuinely isn't a single habitual user.  -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 14:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * My mother doesn't drive (she's legally blind), but she was a co-owner with my father of their car. When my father died, she attempted to get the insurance in her name, but the company that insured the car refused to insure her because she didn't have a driver's license, even though she had co-owned the car since they had bought it.  As I was going to be the driver of the car in order to carry her around for her errands, etc. (I have my own car for my own use), we eventually put it on my insurance, even though I'm not a co-owner.  RNealK (talk) 07:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Wasted food in Africa
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-06-30/africa-s-richest-man-vies-with-china-in-nigerian-tomato-market

"The 2011 study showed that Nigeria, Africa’s most populous nation, pays $360 million to import more than 300,000 metric tons annually of tomato paste from companies including Hebei, China-based Baoding Sanyuan Food Packing Co. and Singapore’s Olam International Ltd (OLAM). a year. The country produces 1.5 million tons of tomatoes annually of which about 900,000 tons rot, Agriculture Minister Akinwunmi Adesina said at a June 13 presentation in the capital, Abuja."

That's a lot of wasted food. From the point of view of business, how does this happen? I mean if there isn't much storage and not enough transport, why do the farmers grow so many tomatoes? Surely it costs them a lot of money to grow tomatoes that will be wasted.

Peoplelikeyou (talk) 05:13, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Tomatos are quite cheap to grow in the right conditions. They are also fairly perishable in the best of cases, and much more so without expensive cooling and storage. Production and demand are both variable. So if the price is right, it makes sense to overproduce to a certain degree. Compare e.g. cut flowers in advanced markets - they have a shelf life of one to two days, but the price makes it profitable to offer them even if most are thrown out in the end. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:23, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. That was a really good answer. Peoplelikeyou (talk) 07:37, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

It might help you to picture the kind of farmers you're dealing with here. I don't know much about Nigeria, but in parts of East Africa that I'm more familiar with, a surprisingly large proportion of the crops are raised by smallholders with tiny plots of land, who find it very difficult to reach profitable markets. Roadside sellers are especially commonplace. --Dweller (talk) 16:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Even in rich, developed countries (e.g. USA), crop spoilage is embarrassingly high. See this nice publication "Global Food Losses and Food Waste," from the Food and Agriculture Organization. It discusses many of the causes and consequences, and gives some suggestions for solving the problem. The current estimate is 30% of global harvest is lost to spoilage.  The FAO website is generally a good place to go for this kind of thing, its publications are freely available, and they are a highly reliable source. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Embarrassingly high is a matter of opinion. If a tomato gets a water crack or rotten spot, a family gardener can cut it out and eat the rest of the tomato but a commercial farmer can't load it into a semi trailer and ship it hundreds of miles to the ketchup factory or sell it in the city farm market. That counts as food loss. When Gerber sends their off-spec veggies to a local electricity plant as fuel or the potato farmer sells the poor quality spuds for deer feed, that counts as food loss too because humans didn't eat it. Food waste is defined as waste of food at the retail and final consumer levels. Rmhermen (talk) 17:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If it goes to deer, there could be more deer, and more hunting, and more deer meat consumed. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:22, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Crop spoliage is an effect of diminishing returns. The farmer's goal is to make as much money at as little cost possible.  He could certainly take harsher measures to stop pests, more care not to damage tomatoes.  The price of his product would go up and fewer people be able to afford it, driving him out of business eventually. μηδείς (talk) 17:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Telephone number in Reading, Berkshire, England
In about 1991, a telephone number in Reading, Berkshire, England was 0734 470*** (for privacy reasons, the last 3 numbers have been written as ***). However, since then there have been changes in dialling codes. I would therefore be grateful if a user could please tell me what this telephone number is today. Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 06:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * See . The area code changed from 0734 to 0118 and a 9 was added to the existing local six digit numbers to make them seven digits, thus the new number should be (0118) 947 0xxx from within the UK and +44 118 947 0xxx from outside the UK (according to ), if I've read this correctly. --Modocc (talk) 07:09, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you.Simonschaim (talk) 18:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

How come we didn't know about the "disappearing 90-year olds" before the census?
According to the BBC article Where are the missing 90-year-olds? the census shows that:


 * "There were 30,000 fewer people aged in their 90s than previously believed," he says - 429,000 instead of 457,000.
 * That was about 15% fewer men; 5% fewer females. There were also fewer centenarians than previously believed - the number of female centenarians was [out] by about 10%."
 * That was about 15% fewer men; 5% fewer females. There were also fewer centenarians than previously believed - the number of female centenarians was [out] by about 10%."

It says that a similar thing happened in the USA:


 * Something similar has happened in the United States.
 * A projection made in 2004 suggested that by 2010, there would be around 114,000 people aged 100 or over...But, in reality, the 2010 census counted less than half that number.
 * A projection made in 2004 suggested that by 2010, there would be around 114,000 people aged 100 or over...But, in reality, the 2010 census counted less than half that number.

Surely these people must have registered deaths, stopped collecting pensions, etc. Why was this a surprise from the census instead of something the governments already knew? -- Q Chris (talk) 10:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * They only "disappeared" in the sense that earlier projections of the numbers expected to be living to that age at that date were wrong. It was only a "surprise" to people, like the actuary quoted, whose livelihood depends on the accuracy of projections.  All demographic projections are always "wrong", in the sense that they are based on statistical assumptions - well informed guesses, in other words - that change will occur in precisely predictable ways.  There could be all sorts of reasons why the precise projected changes did not occur - but, essentially (and assuming that the census figures are reasonably accurate) mortality rates were higher than expected.  The reasons for that will be explored - it may be related to health care funding resulting in a slower rate of improvement in mortality rates than previously assumed, or simply to a slightly incorrectly calibrated population projection model.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:31, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand that, but why was it only revealed in the census? Surely pension payments, etc. would have told the government before hand that the figures were not following projections. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no single national database (in the UK) containing information on every individual - there has been strong political resistance to setting up any such thing. And, "the government" is not the monolithic all-knowing entity that you seem to suggest.  Information, and estimates, are collated from a variety of sources, and those are drawn upon by, for example, ONS in preparing their annual mid-year population estimates.  But the information they use is not comprehensive, and inaccuracies build up the more years have passed since the last census (to which should be added the fact that the 2001 UK census was in some respects notoriously inaccurate).  I'm not sure anyone is really "surprised" by this, apart from one person and a journalist writing up an eyecatching story.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:54, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * (ec, but similar) Contrary to common understanding, The Government is not a monolithic entity with perfect awareness. Pensions will be handled by one branch, social services by another, and demographic projection by a third. Coordinating all that information is impossible with current technology (and I don't throw words like that out easily). Even for smallish companies, managing information flow so that managers at all levels have the relevant information (but are not overwhelmed by less important data) is a big challenge. As an example, at one time, Microsoft Word used to have 30 implementations of sorting algorithms, many inefficient and some buggy (and despite the fact that  is part of the C standard library). Even for such a comparatively simple project, managing information is hard. Now imagine the same thing times 1000 or 10000 for a mid-size state. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * This is basically headline-grabbing hype. "30,000 missing 90-year olds" sounds much more exciting than "Actuaries make some incorrect assumptions and over-estimate number of people in their 90s in UK by about 6.5%". Gandalf61 (talk) 16:31, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * You'd need to know the assumptions upon which the predictions were made. If for example, they predicted only deaths by natural causes, suicides could have played a significant role.  The people aren't physically missing, the projections are off. μηδείς (talk) 17:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

ref vw twin s1960/61 convertable
ref vw twin s1960/61 convertable this vehicle was made for the frankfurt motor show 60/61

i lived in stuttgart from nov 1963 to oct 1964

training at the usa based factory manufacturing union special industrial sewing machines for which my family company was their agents in south africa i bought a used vw twin s racing green with convertable black top from the vw company in stuttgart which was manufactured for the 60/61 frankfurt auto show i am trying to trace information and pictures of the model - can you help or put me in touch with the relevant party i sold it towards the end of 63 on my return to south africa

thanks jeffrey cyril berzack — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.169.66 (talk) 10:19, 2 July 2013


 * Hah, I lived in Stuttgart at the same time (I was six years old, and my father was in the US Army). The question is a bit difficult to understand:  if I get it, you're looking for a picture of a 1960-61 Volkswagen Beetle convertible with twin carbs.  Is that correct? Looie496 (talk) 14:34, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * If the vehicle was a custom car made for an auto show - then it's probably a collector's item and may well be known to the VW enthusiasts community out there. Have you tried asking on one of their forums?  A good starting point might be the South African VW Owner's Club - if the car is that rare, then it's quite possible that one of them currently owns the car. SteveBaker (talk) 14:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I think he means that he sold the car in Germany before returning to South Africa. It wouldn't make sense to transport a car all the way to South Africa only to sell it there. Looie496 (talk) 14:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Latvian Gypsies - real or fiction?
What type of Gypsy live (or lived) in Latvia? In Holes, by Louis Sachar, Hector Zeroni's ancestor is implied to be Madame Zeroni, the character who tells Stanley Yelnats' ancestor to go the United States and seek his fortune there. Are there really real gypsies in Latvia in the mid-to-late 19th century, or is this a fictional invention from Louis Sachar's mind? Also, what is the type of gypsy that is so often portrayed in the mass media as the old-lady-with-the-magical-ball-thingy? Sneazy (talk) 15:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Our article on Roma (Romani subgroup) mentions the Lotva, which are Roma in Lithuania and the Pskov Oblast. I would be very surprised if they weren't in Latvia as well.  They're a subgroup of the Ruska Roma, who have been in Russia since the C17th.  Rojomoke (talk) 16:52, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The Gypsy Holocaust in Latvia says that "According to Latvia's 1935 census, 3,839 Gypsies lived in the country, the largest population of any of the Baltic States. Many of them did not travel about the country, but lived settled, or "sedentary" life." Alansplodge (talk) 12:47, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Looking at the final part of your question, Gypsies have traditionally sought to supplement their incomes by whatever way they could; agricultural labouring was their main trade. In my 1960s childhood in London, English Romany Gypsy women would go from door to door selling sprigs of "lucky" heather. Fortune telling at fairs was another source of income, especially as many people believed that gypsies had some innate occult powers. The Daily Express newspaper until recently employed a series of astrologers from the Petulengro family, the latest being Claire Petulengro . "Her grandmother was Eva Petulengro, the Romany gypsy, who established her name as the palmist and clairvoyant on Brighton Pier. Her mother, also called Eva Petulengro, was well known in the sixties and seventies with several celebrity clients to her name and over 60 newspaper columns." Romany Gypsies in the UK now seem to make most of their income from scrap-metal recycling, at least according to the popular stereotype. Alansplodge (talk) 16:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Is that because their fortune-telling businesses failed due to unforeseen circumstances? --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  00:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As long as nobody is striking a happy medium! Alansplodge (talk) 07:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * See also Corlinda Lee, who read Queen Victoria's fortune. Alansplodge (talk) 07:28, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Band Aid question
Can anyone see Adam Clayton (U2) in the performance of Do They Know It's Christmas? At Live Aid concert?  Ms.Bono  (zootalk) ☆ 20:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you looking for this? --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 23:56, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Adam Clayton wasn't on the original song, as far as I know. Only Bono was. I can't see him on the video posted above, either.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  00:51, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah KägeTorä - (影虎), that's what I thought. I read this and I started loooking for Adam but didn't see him. I just saw Bono trying to remeber the song a couple of times... :P  Ms.Bono  (zootalk) ☆ 12:40, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, thanks for that article. I didn't know Adam Clayton was on the backing vocals in the chorus on the original. Perhaps - and speculating here - he may not have decided to go on for that song because around about that time he had a drink problem, and U2's set was several hours before the end of the UK part of the show. Yes, and Bono holding the lyrics - I've never seen him do that before :)  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  00:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Neither have I, KägeTorä - (影虎). He makes the lyrics up now (no paper) :P, I think he learnt it from that show. He seemed lost among the back then super stars (Freddy, Bowie and McCartney)... But then, whe I saw Live8... What a change!!! Those were the years :P  Ms.Bono  (zootalk) ☆ 13:08, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

How do online ads that promise actual sexual contact work?
Visit porn sites and you see a lot of ads saying things like "A website that gets you laid instantly! Just message and ask to f*ck!" or, "37 viable women found in < >, waiting to have sex with you!"

Now, I know they're lying. Obviously. In that case, I want to know how they make any money. Don't their customers realize "Hey, I'm never actually getting to the part where I have sex with somebody!"

How do they keep their customer base when the ads bold-facedly lie about what the site will give you?2602:306:C4B4:ADF0:5969:D568:F6EB:832D (talk) 23:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Have you tried purchasing a membership? I am not sure what source you think we have that will tell you the quality of what you would actually get from any such site, and whether you would find it worth resubscribing. μηδείς (talk) 23:44, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * If a million people see the site, and just one of them gives them their credit card details, the site is on a winner. Most, like you, won't believe it, but as P. T. Barnum allegedly said, "There's a sucker born every minute". HiLo48 (talk) 23:51, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't really see why it's an obvious lie. As I understand it, members of such sites post profiles which indicate their general area of residence and their willingness to engage in sexual activity.  Geolocation will enable the host site to determine the area where a visitor is connecting from, and display the number of profiles in that area.  One would suspect that a considerable percentage of such profiles will be of a certain type of female, but that doesn't make the basic figure or the claim inaccurate. Tevildo (talk) 00:55, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Some are legit, some are malware-infested websites. AdultFriendFinder gets you screwed, that string of gibberish in your junk filter screws you. It's a good rule of thumb to never click any Internet ad, but the crappier and more insistent they look, the worse. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:20, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * And no, I can't vouch for the quality of partner you'd get. I had a friend (and not one of those "friends" who is actually me) who used AFF a similar site. I heard happy stories, but never met anyone or saw anything. I imagine they're roughly the same mixed bag that used to go to singles bars. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Also worth remembering that advertising is its own business. If people click ads, advertisers make money. Doesn't matter what the ad offers or doesn't. I see a lot that just say "Download" "Free Download!" or are a picture of tits. Some are empty windows with an X in the corner that wants you to "close" it.


 * $17,000,000,000 spent on Internet ads in the first half of 2012. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:38, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I guess I should explain why I think such sites are scams. (1)I believe it would be impossible for them to have a worldwide network of women ready to have sex with anybody who "just signs up"; the costs would be impossible, as would the screening process (making sure every customer is underage and STD-free, etc). Not to mention paying the women's employment wages, even on a "per customer" basis. (2)If it's volunteer-based (like a social dating site) where on earth would they find women who'd sign up for such a thing? Surely the men who apply would vastly outnumber the women, indeed I find it hard to believe women would be attracted to such a crude and self-debasing site (many have pretty misogynistic claims about what their women will do). I'm not trying to play to stereotypes, but the notion that such sites would ever get anything but men is a hard pill to swallow. Some even say things like, "MEN JOIN FREE due to high amounts of female members!!!" 2602:306:C4B4:ADF0:5969:D568:F6EB:832D (talk) 02:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * No, most aren't escort services. Especially not the worldwide ones. Just Facebook for sex. Many women aren't "ladylike" and enjoy debasing anonymous sex. Others like casual "normal" sex with people they've chatted with a bit. But yeah, it seems certain there will be more men looking for those kinds of women than actually exist. Fortunately, nobody minds sharing.


 * Capital letters and exclamation points are usually a sign that it's just a clickable ad, rather than anything. Especially if there's no mention of the service's name.


 * And I think you have a typo. Any company that makes sure its customers are underage isn't one you'll see promoting in the open. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:45, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The sex trade has always been at the forefront of technology so I wouldn't be in the least surprised to find organisations on an international level arranging for matches just like selling holidays, hotel space, tickets to shows etc. Dmcq (talk) 12:48, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The only way I can imagine a legitimate business like this working, is for it to be like a dating or contact site, just a little more racy. So you would sign up and provide a profile and the site would match you with other members who meet your criteria.  I really can't imagine the site having any employees or carrying out any age or STD checks.  Astronaut (talk) 17:36, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

When I was a little younger, I thought, in my foolishness, that those sites must have some level of legitimacy because how else could they survive and advertise on all of the adult sites. So I thought I'd check it out. How they do it (at least the many I tested multiple times) is they give you a free sign-up page, and you can create a profile and stuff all for free. But then they have automated fake profiles that message you, and you have to pay subscription to read more than the first line of the tantalising message. They will also very frequently e-mail you telling you that people are looking at your profile and messaging you. Once you pay a subscription, even once, they've made enough money that they don't need your custom anymore and can attract the next sucker. That's just from my experience. 78.42.201.216 (talk) 20:57, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not sure I'd call them suckers, in the scam sense. These sites generally don't promise or even offer sex (thought the ads might). They offer a chance to meet horny people, and deliver. It's a nudge in the right direction, but it's up to the customer to make themselves (their online selves, anyway) attractive. Roughly the same as real life. Someone like Carice van Houten is going to do better than Bubbles once the mingling starts. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:31, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

xkcd 713 is relevant.- gadfium 02:22, 4 July 2013 (UTC)