Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2013 May 28

= May 28 =

Why is Memorial Day in the US on a different day from the rest of the English speaking world?
Almost every English speaking country has Rememberance Day on or near the 11th of November (the date WW1 ended), why is the US Memorial Day in May? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 20:33, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't confuse Memorial Day with Veterans Day. It's all explained in the first link.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:37, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The armistice in Europe was signed in November, the American Civil War ended in May.--Aspro (talk) 20:41, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * And the Decoration Day tradition (which was how Memorial Day originated) began around the first anniversary of the end of the Civil War. Obviously, long-predating WWI's Armistice Day. I would say that there's a distinction to be made: Decoration / Memorial Day is more about those who have died (in combat or otherwise), while Armistice / Veterans Day is more about the living. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I would disagree with you there. In Europe the focus of Armistice Day is to those that made the ultimate sacrifice. Here, Veterans day is every  Friday night down the pub or local Royal British Legion.--Aspro (talk) 21:04, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm talking US. Sorry about the ambiguity. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Note also that the US had relatively little participation in WW1: 0.13% of population as deaths, contrasted with the UK (2%), France (4%), or Germany (4%). On the other hand, the US Civil War resulted in the deaths of about 2% of the population, so that's a good comparison for the scope of observation.  Throw in that the US Civil War (and, by extension, US observance of Memorial Day) predates WW1 by 50 years, and it's not surprising that US custom differs from European (and here I commit the gross sin of equating "Commonwealth" with "European" -- but in this context, it works fairly well). &mdash; Lomn 20:58, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The poppies are still huge in Canada, too. Soccer and wine, not so much. Not sure of percentages, but 65,000 went "row on row". Not offended by your "gross sin", just saying. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:40, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * 116,000 US dead in one year is not little relative to anything. μηδείς (talk) 21:10, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * It's also worth noting that Memorial Day in the U.S. has become a big holiday largely because it marks the unofficial start of summer, just as Labor Day in the U.S. (ALSO celebrated on a different day than many other parts of the world, FWIW) marks the unofficial end of summer. But the historical reason for the name is noted above.  The observance dates to a time in the U.S. earlier than other countries celebrated the November holiday, and while the November holiday is also celebrated in the U.S., it is known by a different name because Memorial Day was already associated with the end of May; our article notes the first use of the term to 1882, well before the end of WWI.  -- Jayron  32  21:15, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Did the US and the various Euro countries not have an annual day of commemoration for those who fought or died in their wars prior to 1865 for the US and the end of WW2 for those across the pond? I know that in New York they celebrated the end of the American Revolution on the anniversary of day the British forces left New York City (Evacuation Day), a ceremony which has largely faded out. Edison (talk) 22:58, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * In Massachusetts, making her own Evacuation Day (when the British forces left Boston) into a holiday was an extremely handy way of getting Yankee Republicans and Irish Democrats to agree on a politically-popular move for both of them, since the date was March 17th, 1776! (Saint Patrick's Day). [However Evacuation Day (New York) was on November 25th, close to Thanksgiving.] . Years of moaning, complaint and budget shortages have finally, however, taken this so-called "hack holiday" away from most public workers (few private employers observing it), together with Patriots' Day (commemorating not 9/11/2001 but the Battles of Lexington and Concord on April 19th, 1775; the first verse of Paul Revere's Ride (1860) by Longfellow says " 'Twas the eighteenth of April of '75; Hardly a man is now alive, can remember that fateful day and year."). However the Monday celebrating the latter is still (if no longer a day off work for most) the date of the annual Boston Marathon; this year it was on Monday, April 15th. —— Shakescene (talk) 23:26, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * YouTube "professor" John Green makes the point (at 10:20) that World War I and the art of the Lost Generation changed war from glorious to something we should prevent. Before then, it seemed more common to celebrate victories than to mourn loss. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:39, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The British later adopted the curious practice of celebrating the aftermath of major defeats. Earlier, celebrating military foolhardiness was also popular. Neither of these produced a public holiday, though. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:07, 29 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Australia genetically inherited a similar practice from the British. A failed action in a foreign land was the basis of a major annual national commemoration that rivals our official national day in status.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  03:12, 29 May 2013 (UTC)


 * One was the most successful retreat in history, the other a show of bravery and submission to duty worth commemoration for those who think bravery and duty (rather than, what? cowardice and dereliction?) are virtues. (BTW, I am not a fan of duty for duty sake, but I am a fan of virtuosity.) μηδείς (talk) 03:20, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Dunkirk is a heroic event, and certainly deserves celebration. The Charge of the Light Brigade was tragically heroic ("do and die"), as with Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:59, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * If riding into near-certain death is heroic and/or stupid, running into it while carrying a man is on another level. It's a shame most horses don't have names and generally can't communicate, but I hope there's a proper song, statue or minor holiday memorializing their determination and spirit, individually or at least collectively. Anybody know? InedibleHulk (talk) 01:13, 30 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Somewhat answered my own question with the Recognition section of Horses in warfare. Go Drummer Boy! InedibleHulk (talk) 01:26, 30 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Just to clarify, there are no public holidays to remember the war dead in the UK; Remembrance Sunday was moved to a Sunday to avoid disruption to industry in 1945. Armistice Day was observed before WWII on 11 November, but there was no day off, everybody stopped at 11 am for two minutes and then continued with their jobs. Before that, the only major war commemorations were that the Army observed Waterloo Day, and the Navy Trafalgar Day, although these are celebrations of victory rather than remembrance of sacrifice. They didn't get the day off. Having purely professional armed forces before WWI, the view seems to be that it they knew what they were letting themselves in for. However, public sympathy for the common soldiery increased through the 19th century, and memorials to the war dead became more common after the Crimean War. Alansplodge (talk) 12:55, 30 May 2013 (UTC)