Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2013 November 3

= November 3 =

AL pitcher power at the plate
How many home runs have been hit by American League pitchers, playing in AL parks, since the designated-hitter rule went into effect? --Trovatore (talk) 05:20, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you talking post-season, regular-season or both? It's possible Retrosheet has something about this, but it might take some digging. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:26, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I was thinking regular season, but either would be interesting. --Trovatore (talk) 05:27, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I just looked through the Yankees pitchers on Retrosheet for just 2000-2012 (they don't have 2013 yet), and not only did they have a mere handful of at-bats during those years, you could just about count the hits on that one hand, and while there were a couple of RBI's here and there, there were no homers. With the expanded quantity of interleague games in 2013 (thanks to Astros switching cellars) it's possible there might be some. We'll have to wait and see. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:35, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Ha! I just googled [American League pitchers with home runs since 1973], and SABR has a page which includes that info. There were 17 of them through 2011, and not surprisingly they have all come since interleague play began. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:40, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Were they in NL parks? I specified AL parks. --Trovatore (talk) 05:41, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * There are only 17 of them. Go to Retrosheet and look up the game logs for those dates and teams, and that will tell you. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, good point. Thanks, Bugs. --Trovatore (talk) 05:58, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Searching 2012 probably wouldn't take much time. Just check the stats for each team and see what the pitchers have done. If there are any homers, you can quickly follow the links to track them down. 2013 might not be out yet because the stats need to be made official by the Elias bureau. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:00, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * What I'm really interested in is games where the DH is available, but the manager either elects not to use it, or makes a choice during the game that bars it (for example, leaving the DH in to play defense), and then the pitcher goes ahead and does something good at the plate. --Trovatore (talk) 06:53, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * You can check out those 17 box scores and probably figure out which ones, if any, meet your criteria. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:51, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The answer is none in the regular season. The DH is always used in American League parks, so the only instances of a pitcher batting in one such park come if (a) a team forgoes the use of the DH; (b) a pitcher is used as a pinch-hitter; or (c) a pitcher had to bat because the DH has been moved to a defensive position. Instance (a) is extremely rare and usually results from a manager screwing up the line-up card; no homer has ever resulted from this. Instance (b) is also quite rare in the American League; all pinch-hit homers by pitchers in the last 40 years have been hit in National League parks (we're talking once-in-a-decade events). Instance (c) is somewhat more common, but occurs late in games, with relief pitchers getting the benefit of the at-bat when it happens; again, I have never seen an instance of a pitcher hitting a homer in such circumstances, although a few have gotten a hit (see Ryan Hancock). There has been one instance in the World Series, however: before the DH was introduced in the World Series, Ken Holtzman of the Oakland A's homered at home against Andy Messersmith of the Los Angeles Dodgers in Game 4 of the 1974 World Series boxscore here. --Xuxl (talk) 14:33, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * My dumb question: Why are pitchers automatically lousy batters? (Babe Ruth as a counterexample). Are the physical/mental characteristics which make for a good pitcher all that much rarer than the abilities needed to play other positions? Edison (talk) 22:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * They are not automatically lousy batters. See for example Don Robinson of the (1980s) Giants.  Or lots more examples you can find here.
 * I think the point is that they don't really get paid for their batting, so they don't spend much time on it. Also, starters are not everyday players, and relievers are likely to be substituted for when they come up, so they don't get that many at-bats. --Trovatore (talk) 22:11, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * That's what it is. It's hard to focus on both facets. Pitchers focus on pitching. If they can hit, they can hit; if they can't, they either learn how to bunt or they try to hook up with an American League club. The Cubs in 2003 had two pitchers who could hit: Kerry Wood and Mark Pryor. In fact, it was Wood's extra base hit in Game 5 of the DS which ultimately sent the Braves home for the winter. Bob Gibson could hit. In fact, he was a better hitter than their shortstop, Dal Maxvill. However, Bob Buhl and Hank Aguirre were two of the worst-hitting pitchers that ever set foot on a diamond. Ruth, the ultimate counterexample, rebelled when he was asked to pitch every fourth day and play outfield the other days. He told his team "pick one", and they let him stop pitching for the most part so that he could bat every day. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:27, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Clogged Drain
I scoured the internet for, very simply, instructions on how to use a chemical drain cleaner. But all I can find is reasons why they're no good, suggestions for alternatives, instructions on how to use a snake thing, and instructions for typical sinks and tubs. Well, that doesn't help me at all, because I'm living in Korea and I'm fairly new here, so I have some unusual factors in this situation.

First, I couldn't find a snake or zip-it thing at any of my neighbourhood markets, but I did find chemical drain cleaner. (I can recognize it by the picture on the label. There is no such picture on vinegar or baking powder or whatever else it is they recommend, so I can't find those either, although I'm sure they're in the market somewhere.) So I'm stuck with the chemical drain cleaner.

Second, all the instructions on the bottle are in Korean. That's all I really want, just basic instructions, but I can't find any such instructions on the internet, because the internet assumes people can just read labels. I have unclogged a sink once before, but that was like two years ago, and I don't remember what I did. Third, it's not a traditional tub/shower, it's an entire wet room. Is my entire bathroom floor going to end up soaking in this stuff? How do I handle that?

Please help me. I'm a total domestic moron, who just needs a really basic step-by-step explanation of what to do with this bottle of drain stuff. Thank you! (Side note: at the ripe old age of 24, I cleaned my first ever toilet today, so I'm pretty proud of that!) Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 11:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * A sink plunger will be more effective than a chemical cleaner, and should be easy to buy and recognize at any hardware store. That being said, the basic procedure is: (a) Remove as much of the standing water as you can (let it drain out if there's any flow through the drain, or use a towel to mop it up if there isn't), (b) put on a pair of rubber gloves (and a pair of safety goggles wouldn't do any harm), (c) pour the drain cleaner down the drain until it reaches the top of the drain - don't let it spread over the floor too much, (d) wait until it drains away, (e) repeat (c) and (d) until the bottle is empty (or until you decide to give up and get a sink plunger instead). Tevildo (talk) 12:26, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Like I said, I'm a domestic moron who is cleaning a bathroom for the first time in my life, in a foreign country no less, so I a) would have never even thought of a plunger, b) wouldn't know where to find one here, and c) wouldn't have the faintest idea how to use it. But the previous tenant left behind some drain cleaner, so... here goes :) Thanks for the directions; I shall try my best not to screw it up too badly! Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 13:05, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Another note, don't breath in the fumes from the Drain cleaner...Sfan00 IMG (talk) 18:59, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know anything about plumbing arrangements in Korea, but if the drain components under the floor are push fit, you would need to be a bit careful with a plunger to avoid forcing them apart. In our shower you can lift off the slightly domed cover and underneath the drain has a central screw so you can remove the grid thing (I don't know what it is called) and then you can lift up and clean a plastic trap just underneath. Thincat (talk) 19:51, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * DO NOT mix various chemical drain cleaners by pouring one down and then another, since some reactions between the strongly concentrated chemicals might release noxious gases or might cause caustic chemicals to spew up into your face. One chemical should be flushed away by water before you try another. Some drain clogs cannot be cured by all the plunger action in the world, since it may be downstream from the connection to the vent, and the pressure surges from the plunger just go up the vent stack. If all else fails, a plumber can snake the drain. In the US, it costs $150 to $200 to get a plumber to come and do his thing. The last time I had to hire one, he used the same type of drain auger I had, but was more successful in getting it around that last bend in the pipe before the clog. For maintenance of drains I like a biological cleaner, the "Plumb Clean" US brand. used weekly or so. No idea what bio cleaners are available in Korea. Edison (talk) 21:36, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * You can probably get a plunger from a neighbourhood hardware store. The Plunger article has basic instructions.  A bigger 'cup' will give more suction but see thincat's comments above; and a longer stick will help you keep your hands out of possibly contaminated water.  You should try to find out what kind of cleaner it is - some are toxic and/or corrosive and could have unpleasant reactions if just dumped in water (see Drain cleaner).  This is where you really need the help of someone who can read Korean.  Try asking the neighbour, a work colleague, or another ex-pat who has been there a while and is more used to how things work.  If that doesn't work post a photo of the instructions somewhere and put a link here - maybe one of the answeres here can read it.  If it is more difficult than a plunger or chemicals can fix, it is probably best to call a plumber (and/or the landlord if you are renting).  Astronaut (talk) 18:42, 4 November 2013 (UTC)


 * In many cases, you can unplug a sink or toilet by taking a bucket of hot water with dishwashing liquid in it and *rapidly* filling the plugged vessel to close to the top - and if it's not instantly unplugged - leaving it for an hour or so. It's kinda rare for a pipe to be 100% blocked and if any water at all can trickle through, this will gradually unplug the drain more and more.  If no water whatever is flowing past the blockage, the chemical treatment probably won't work either - and in that case, a plunger or a snake is absolutely required.  If the drain gets plugged a lot, then one time after you've unplugged it, using the chemical treatment to clean off the sides of the drain may help to smooth the passage of solid materials and help prevent it from clogging again. SteveBaker (talk) 19:30, 4 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I second the advice to use a sink plunger first. A toilet plunger can be used if you don't have a sink plunger, but push the extra rubber part on the bottom (meant to fit in the toilet drain) back up inside before you use it.  You actually want the business end to be underwater when using a plunger, so no need to use towels to dry everything up first.  Push down right over the drain, as fast as you can, then pull it back up as fast as you can.  Repeat this action maybe 10 times.  You should always have a toilet plunger in every bathroom.  Without one there, a guest might clog the toilet and have no alternative but to call for help with his ass half-wiped.  Not a pleasant prospect. StuRat (talk) 19:47, 4 November 2013 (UTC)


 * If the sink plunger fails to solve the problem completely then it is likely you have a lot of crud in the pipes. A combination of modern shower gels, detergent crud and pubic hair wont let traditional chemical drain cleaners like caustic soda anywhere near them.  A  snake wont reach and remove  all of that crud either. A chemical option is to use 90 w/w sulphuric acid. “Note: a word of caution. Just because sulphuric is in all car batteries does not mean it is  benign. Don't get it in your eyes – use sunglasses if that is all you have at hand. Get it in your eyes and it is bad news.” Use a 125 millilitres (for a bath tub) and leave. An hour is more than enough. Add  cup of water and see what happens (always add acid to water – but in this case add the the cup of water very slowly -then leave for an other  hour). The crud should have then dissolved and you can flush it through. What I do after, is to add some more acid to dissolve any  crud that is left. This is safe for plastic and lead piping. Finally, I think Korea has limited water resources so, you could economise by always sharing each  bath with a friend.--Aspro (talk) 00:33, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

What is Request for Comment on Wikipedia?
I would like to request for comments on certain topics on my talk page and a few other talk pages that I have posted as well since no one has responded to what I have said in months. I was wondering how can I make others respond to what I have said without going on to editors talk pages and trying to get them to comment. Keeby101 (talk) 17:34, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * This sort of question should really be on the Help desk. However, if what you want to do is have a discussion about "certain topics", you're not supposed to - see WP:NOTBLOG. If you want to discuss the contents of a particular article, the place to do that is on the article talk page, not personal user talk pages.  WP:RFC is part of the formal Wikipedia administrative/disciplinary process, but I assume that's not what you're referring to. Tevildo (talk) 17:57, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Dream-Stories
What is the first identifiable occurrence of the dream-story trope in a plot (where the entire event of a story takes place in a dream, as realised later toward the end of the story)? 202.153.41.162 (talk) 20:14, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Not sure if it's the first, but The Pilgrim's Progress (late 17th century) is one such book. You might try searching for pre-Pilgrim's Progress dream-story tropes.  Nyttend (talk) 22:41, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The Dream of the Rood is a tad or two earlier, and there are probably earlier ones still. But, as with The Pilgrim's Progress, the dream-format is made abundantly clear from the start.  There's no big cop-out Dallas-type realisation that it was all just a dream, so maybe neither of them count for your purposes? -  Ka renjc (talk) 22:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Hm, you're right; I was just remembering the bit at the end, where he says something like "And then I woke up, and whaddayouknow, it was all a dream". I'd completely forgotten that it's also mentioned at the start.  Nyttend (talk) 02:00, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Dream world (plot device) is our article on the subject, although it doesn't say which is the earliest story that satisfies the OP's criterion. Tevildo (talk) 23:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Not an exact match, but there's the parable of the cave in Plato's Republic. μηδείς (talk) 02:44, 4 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Jacob's Ladder was pretty early. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  08:41, 4 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Some classical and medieval instances are described in our article Dream vision, though as Karenjc says, in these it's almost invariably clear from the beginning that the narration is describing a dream. For the now somewhat hackneyed "it was all a dream" ending, I'm having trouble thinking of any examples earlier than the Victorian period——such as Dickens's The Chimes and Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, or in a somewhat different way Bierce's "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge". Deor (talk) 12:03, 4 November 2013 (UTC)


 * "Many scholars interpret The Aeneid, the epic Latin poem/propaganda piece commissioned by Octavian to Virgil, as the earliest example of a story being "all just a dream"." TvTropes is hardly a reliable source, but it's usually my first stop on trope information before delving into further research. Don't know if it's too late in this thread to help... 81.147.166.89 (talk) 14:50, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. That helps. Yes, I was only looking for "all just a dream after all" kind of stories, so Pilgrim's Progress and suchlike don't fit the bill. I was thinking of Alice in Wonderland too. 202.153.41.162 (talk) 19:52, 4 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Is A Midsummer Night's Dream too obvious? Various characters suppose that events in the story have been just a dream, and then at the end Puck tells the audience that they were dreaming the whole thing (which enhances the suspension of disbelief by providing only the choices of a dream or real events, not the possibility that they were at a play). Card Zero  (talk) 21:30, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Motorcycles on metal-deck bridges
Yesterday, I drove across the Irvin S. Cobb Bridge (Street View image of the crossing) and was surprised to see a warning to motorcyclists about the steel-grate deck. How would such a deck be dangerous on a motorcycle? Nyttend (talk) 22:40, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * A metal grating can have a similar effect to lane grooves, especially for vehicles with narrow tires. In other words, it makes steering into a curve somewhat harder. This is particularly problematic for two-wheeled vehicles like bikes that depend on dynamic stability to stay upright. Thus, the rider needs to be extra careful. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:16, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * In addition, metal surfaces are horrible to navigate on a bike because the reduction in traction makes it much likelier that a wheel will slip. With a bike you only have two small contact patches with the road instead of four; if either of them slips and you lose traction temporarily, unpleasant things happen very quickly.  A car may just slide, but a bike can behave like a bronco in such conditions.  If the rear wheel slips but the front doesn't, you risk a potentially lethal highside if you panic, brake and then let the rear brake off; if the front wheel slips, it's much harder to regain traction and keep straight on when you let the brake off, which is what you ought to do. Even riding over a manhole cover is best avoided if possible; a whole metal bridge is much worse. I don't know exactly what the steel grate is like on this bridge, but logically a "grate" surface implies that only part of the usual contact patch is actually in contact with the slippery metal surface at any one time, with the rest passing over the gap in the grating, reducing the area available for traction even further.  Not a nice prospect. -  Ka renjc (talk) 23:27, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * It's difficult enough to control a car on that kind of surface. The drawbridges in Chicago, for example. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:05, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Never driven on one of those, although I know the Dickey Road canal bridge near Marktown in East Chicago. Nyttend (talk) 01:51, 4 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that we have those in the UK, but we do have cattle grids to keep motorcyclists awake! Alansplodge (talk) 08:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Including my least favourite one, at junction 38 of the southbound M6, just as you are accelerating down the access ramp onto the motorway itself. Try suddenly encountering that on an (inevitably) drizzly dark morning on two wheels, scattering expletives at the sheep as you go. -  Ka renjc (talk) 09:55, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
 * So not only actors should be treated like cattle. Mooo-ve along. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:15, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
 * After having walked on wet metal grating in work boots, I've often wondered how more motorcyclists don't die on metal spans. I'm normally very sure-footed but have slipped a bit more than once on wet metal grating.  Dismas |(talk) 10:12, 4 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Worth a read. http://gridchicago.com/2011/on-open-metal-grate-bridges/ 196.214.78.114 (talk) 11:57, 4 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Something else that can be a hazard, but more to bicyclists than motorcyclists, is expansion cracks. Those are places where the metal intentionally is allowed to spread apart or close up, to deal with thermal expansion of the metal, and can be wide enough for bicycle tires to slip down in them. StuRat (talk) 19:52, 4 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Then there's wind to worry about. High winds are often found on bridges, and vehicles which are light relative to the area from the side are most susceptible to being blown off course.  There was even a case of a Yugo being blown off of the Mackinac Bridge: Mackinac_Bridge. StuRat (talk) 20:06, 4 November 2013 (UTC)