Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2013 September 20

= September 20 =

Census report
Where can I find a source (preferably a census report) listing counties of the United Kingdom by population? I need a reliable source for a Wikipedia article. I really appreciate any help you can provide. undefined — Bill william compton  Talk   06:45, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Which definition of "counties" do you want to use?! The basic 2011 census information currently available for England and Wales is categorised here, for Scotland here, and for Northern Ireland here.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:49, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your prompt response. Is there any direct source where I can find lists of regions, council areas, non-metropolitan counties, metropolitan counties, communities, etc, by population? Something like this. undefined — Bill william compton  Talk   11:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The list of English counties uses these census files as its source for population data. Warofdreams talk 12:42, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Who are these people?
Can anybody identify all of these people and tell me how they might be related, if at all? http://copytaste.com/e4730 202.153.41.162 (talk) 11:47, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Second from left is the Indian tennis coach Zeeshan Ali. On the right is a young Andre Agassi. I therefore deduce, without knowing who the other two are, that the thing connecting them is tennis. --Viennese Waltz 11:58, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * ...in which case the gentleman on the left with the impressive facial hair could be Major Walter Clopton Wingfield. Gandalf61 (talk) 12:17, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I wondered about that too, but since it's an old painting I would have expected it to come up in a GIS, which it doesn't. So I don't think it's him. --Viennese Waltz 12:22, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The woman is Zimbabwean tennis player Cara Black. The guy on the left is Michael Madhusudan Dutt (see here), whose only connection to tennis seems to be that he is an ancestor of Leander Paes.  --Viennese Waltz 12:34, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Planning a Wedding
Invitations, buffet, music... what else must be taken into account to plan a wedding?... And what do you say in the vows?  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  13:53, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Try This for your first question and here for your second. -- Jayron  32  14:44, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I wish I could but right now I am at work and I can't.  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  14:46, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The dress, the flowers, the color scheme of the wedding/reception/groomsmen and bridesmaids, the location, who will marry them, whether they wish to go with traditional vows or write their own, the cake etc. etc. 63.95.64.254 (talk) 15:02, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Loving this order. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:25, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * is an article listing the many ways money gets spent in a wedding these days. The 2012 US average cost reported was over $28,000. Edison (talk) 15:14, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course that number should be taken with a rather large grain of salt. Average cost is not the same as median cost; a small number of very expensive weddings will skew those numbers upward substantially.  Note that the accompanying table includes an average cost of more than $12,000 for the venue/hall, for instance&mdash;these are not inexpensive locations.  The table was produced from data provided by respondents to a survey of individuals who hired professional wedding planners, which is also going to skew towards expensive ceremonies.  Finally, the average costs given for each of the items in the table add up to more ($37,000 altogether) than the total average wedding cost ($28,000) even before catering costs are added on, which suggests that they're taking averages over selected subpopulations in their data and not reporting it very well.  If I were of a particularly cynical bent, I would also note that wedding planners have a vested interest in encouraging the perception that weddings should be very costly.... TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:06, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * For the second part of the question, see Marriage vows.--Shantavira|feed me 15:58, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't forget the blood test. μηδείς (talk) 19:55, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Vows can vary quite a bit from what is shown in our marriage vows article. There are a standard set for some religions but it's not required most of the time that the bride and groom stick to a rigid set of vows.  Many times people write their own. They sometimes reference various milestones within their relationship, use quotes from favorite books, movies, or songs, or they try to be poets and write about their love for one another using symbolism and such.  My own wedding vows were based on the song "Life Less Ordinary".
 * Also, I didn't see where anyone mentioned the wedding rings. Again, here there is quite a bit of variation from simple to more ornate.  And many have inscriptions on the inside of the ring.  Dismas |(talk) 20:52, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What could be written inside of the rings Dismas?  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  12:37, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. μηδείς (talk) 21:18, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Is that written in some language of the Lords of the Rings, μηδείς?  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  13:54, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I see you're a big fan of Tolkien, Medeis? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 06:45, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I could not possibly exaggerate my love for him and his influence on me since coming across The Hobbit at age ten. Note also the origin of users' Tamfang and Tevildo's names.  Yes, Miss Bono, it's the evil inscription on Sauron's ring--the article linked under ash nazg covers it.
 * Whatever you want...although there generally isn't much space. I&lt;3U maybe?  There are some photos on Google Images that show rings made by a company called "WeddingVowRings.com" which contain three lines of text wrapping all around the inside of the ring with the complete set of standard wedding vows...that's got to be 100 words at least!  However, the company doesn't seem to exist any more.  But for someone with money to burn, doubtless something that tiny could still be done.  There is a company called "Gravograph" who make pantograph machines to engrave very tiny lettering and other designs into rings (both outside and inside the band) and other jewellery. SteveBaker (talk) 16:11, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Miss Bono, as Steve said quite a bit can be inscribed but there remains the trouble of being able to read it without a magnifying glass. As far as examples I've heard of each of the following: a short phrase, a bible passage, the chapter and verse of that passage, the date of the wedding, the bride's and groom's initials, or a series of dates (date of the first date, date of engagement, date of wedding).  My own has a few words totaling 24 characters including punctuation which still leaves room for the inscription that says what the ring is made out of.  Dismas |(talk) 07:09, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Dismas, A line of a song, maybe??   Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  13:54, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Miss Bono, it would depend on the line but yeah, I suppose a line could fit. It would depend on the size of the ring, the number of characters, the size of the type used, etc.  Your readers will accept something a bit lengthy if they can imagine it being able to fit.  Tolkien fit quite a bit on a ring and people are still buying his books.  Dismas |(talk) 20:29, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Miscarriage
One of my characters is having a miscarriage, but I cannot find a cause for it. Which can be the cause for a miscarriage in a 29 years old woman?  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  19:16, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * At what time in the pregnancy? It is estimated that 60% of conceptions fail to come to term.  Early miscarriages are often due to defects in the fetus.  Later miscarriages can be caused by problems with the pregnancy or the mother's health.  Have you read miscarriage? μηδείς (talk) 19:20, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * 4th month or something like that, maybe 5th month.  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  19:21, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * That's called a late miscarriage (4,5, or 6 months). My mother had one, they can be psychologically devastating, since the baby has usually started kicking by the 4th month.  See this PDF which gives various reasons, and implies developmental issues with the fetus are still the main cause. μηδείς (talk) 19:33, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I have copied it to read it, how can people notice they're having such miscarriage?  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  19:40, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It will depend on the causes. If the baby stops moving is one thing, or cramping, labor, or bleeding is another.  The PDF addresses that a bit.  If you choose a cause you can look up the symptoms or ask. μηδείς (talk) 19:49, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I am reading that right now, I will ask for sure. Thanks very much. The hard part will be describing emotions and feelings...  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  19:52, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Can be stress, one of the causes?   Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  19:54, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Mere psychological stress by itself, not really. High blood pressure or malnutrition or self-abuse due to extreme stress, yes. If you have never noticed, if you pull a flower out of the ground during blooming, it will slowly die while continuing to flower.  Pregnancy is like that, it doesn't care for the mother's comfort.  Alcoholics and drug addicts carry to term all the time. μηδείς (talk) 20:00, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, and receiving very bad news, like some relative died or something like that... I am trying to find a really really good reason for it to occurs.  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  20:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Some part of the pdf talks about how people feels after the miscarriage, there's a lot of crying, but how do you stop that having others children at home. You cannot show your emotions or they will feel very sad as well.  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  20:30, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Not expecting a miscarriage, a mother will tend to share with the family that she's pregnant by the time the baby is kicking. I have not gone through telling or having to be told a baby had died (my mother had the late miscarriage when I was two).  I don't think keeping from the children that the mother is sad is necessary.  Young children are usually quite willing to comfort others--there was a study on this that came out this summer, if anyone can remember.  As for other deaths, you can read the lists of causes of death for various places.  Give us some more info so we can pretend it is a ref desk question and not an internet forum question. μηδείς (talk) 20:46, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I would agree with Medeis here. My daughter was 2 or 3 when my ex had a miscarriage and we never tried to hide it from her or the fact that we were upset. I suspect that putting on a front and pretending that all was fine would not be in the best interests of any other children. Do you really want to model to small children that another child has died and you don't care? CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 12:41, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, even with all the advances of medical science, sometimes miscarriages happen without reason or explanation. If an autopsy isn't done on the foetus, nobody will know if it was non-viable in itself. Without advances in genetics, it won't be possible to know if the mother is genetically incapable of carrying child to term. I don't know whether you can access this site, which is medically reputable, but it answers your questions in plain English. As to the emotional pain of miscarriage, it deadens over time but never really goes away: it pops up at the most unexpected moments. (OR of course) --TammyMoet (talk) 15:17, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I saw a stat somewhere that said about 1 in 4 pregnancies miscarries, which seems like a shockingly high number. Yet it also squares with relatives and with others I've known about. Some women are lucky to produce even one child. Others, of course, seem to crank them out like a factory. but even they can be subject to miscarriages. A telltale sign in a family tree is when they're producing them about every year and half, and then sometimes there's a longer-than-expected gap. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:46, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * What information do you need μηδείς?, just ask :D I don't know what do you need exactly.    Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  12:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

To go back to the original question. Appendicitis that is undiagnosed for a week may cause a miscarriage. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 12:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Wao! Does any after-effect remain after a miscarriage? (Like you are not able to have a new baby or something like that).   Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  13:14, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Not necessarily. We had another child later. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 13:32, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There is a part of Saw (film), that the wife of the bad guy was preganant and some other guy hit her with a door and she had a miscarriage. Is that really possible?   Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  16:56, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Well it depends on what you believe. According to Fatimah (Muhammad's daughter) and Umar at Fatimah's house she had a miscarriage after being pressed by a door. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 20:29, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * CambridgeBayWeather, I just want to add some drama to the story.    Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  14:15, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Illnesses and accidents are lazy ways to add drama to a story. See deus ex machina.  Human conflict is better.  Have the parents disagree for good reasons over whether she should keep the child.  Maybe he convinces her to keep it, but it turns out the child is ill and dies anyway.  Or have her have to decide whether to do something dangerous to save her lover's life, and have her succeed, but lose the baby. μηδείς (talk) 19:11, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, I like that :)... but how's that a rich and famous person (with security and bodyguards) gets hurt enough to make his wife/girlfriend risks her life and the baby's life to save him? <span style="font-family:'Arial',cursive"> Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  12:01, 26 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Seems really unlikely! If there are bodyguards present then it is they who should be protecting the guy's body (kinda goes with the job don't you think?)...and also that of his wife and unborn child.  If any rescuing needs to be done, it's really them who should be (a) doing the rescuing and (b) bodily restraining the pregnant wife from doing something stupid.


 * So perhaps step #1 is "How do we lose the bodyguards?" - maybe one or both of them are sick of these guys hanging around all the time and tell them to go home? That sounds deeply stupid though - if you actually need bodyguards and pay a small fortune to have them be there - then getting rid of them is downright crazy!  It's hard to imagine how you'd get rid of them without making your protagonists look incredibly stupid (and your plot ridiculously contrived) when some horrible accident happens the very moment the bodyguards are dismissed for the day!  To be perfectly honest, it's going to be hard to have someone who paid all that money to be super-safe suddenly not be perfectly safe!  An illness is a much more likely scenario - but even then, someone who is that rich would have doctors present for every little sniffle and twinge throughout the pregnancy - and the best possible care available...so even that seems really far fetched.


 * Perhaps you should think in terms of a crazy, jealous fan coming up with some super-clever plan to evade the bodyguards and slip a drug of some kind into the wife's food or drink to cause a miscarriage? You could have the trigger for doing that being that the guy announces that he's going to give up his career "to be with his family" now that the kid is arriving.  That gives the fan the motive needed to kill the unborn baby in order to have the guy carry on doing whatever it is that he does.  I'm sure we could come up with plenty of nasty chemicals that would produce the desired effect.  Now all you have to think of is a way to sneak the drug past the guards.  Unless there is an official food taster (I don't think so!) - then all that might be needed would be for the nut-job to get a menial job in the right restaurant.


 * SteveBaker (talk) 13:10, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "Under the guise of writing a fanfic about Joe, she took on the nom-de-plume "Miss Joe" and spent her every waking moment asking the Wikipedia Reference Desk to come up with clever ways to get into Joe's life and even kill his unborn child..." SteveBaker (talk) 13:19, 26 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Hey! I am not! SteveBaker <span style="font-family:'Arial',cursive"> Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  13:59, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Text in &lt;small&gt;font&lt;/small&gt; font is intended humorously! SteveBaker (talk) 17:46, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Crop Circles
When they make the circle by flattening the crop, doesn't that destroy the crop? How can they afford to destroy such a large chunk of the crop just for the sake of a hoax? 202.153.41.162 (talk) 20:05, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * First, it's not their crop. And secondly, prices for e.g. wheat are US$300 per metric ton. Hectare yield is maybe 5 tons. So a 5m radius crop circle in wheat represents less than US$15 in processed wheat (and even less in raw, unprocessed crop). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:17, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "it's not their crop"? Are all crop circles made by vandals? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:18, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I assume that to be the usual, but not the only case. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:26, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I would agree that all of them are made by vandals. "This week one crop circle creator announced he has retired from the practice due to hay fever. Matthew Williams, 42, who was the first person to be prosecuted for destruction of a farmers crops when creating a circle, also bemoaned falling standards as amateurs have taken to creating squares and circles – poor imitations to some of the intricate patterns made in the past." Alansplodge (talk) 23:53, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * See also Police Make First Arrest Over Crop Circles from April 2000. Alansplodge (talk) 23:56, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Ugh. This kind of thing is one reason electric fences were invented. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:22, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No it's not! Have you ever been anywhere near a farmer's elecrtic fence?  I kinda doubt it.  It's one strand of wire about three feet off the ground.  Humans can easily go under them - or with the aid of a coat or a stick...over them.  So preventing people from creating crop circles is most certainly not one of the reasons they were invented.  In fact, they were invented only to keep large animals within the area you set aside for them. SteveBaker (talk) 04:49, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oops, I meant to say razor wire. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:56, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Is "Razor Wire" a brand of drone that delivers laser-gun equipped spitting cobras to a target within 10-centimeter accuracy? μηδείς (talk) 05:25, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, but those would be good backup for the razor wire defense strategy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:06, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The selling price of milling wheat seems to be around GBP 170 per tonne ( = USD 272) - average UK yield is just over 8 tonnes per hectare. So not far out Mr Schulz. Alansplodge (talk) 00:09, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Dang! And I always try so hard to get it wrong! My price was red winter wheat FOB New Orleans (rounded), my yield was downpolated from our claim in wheat that France has the highest yielding fields at somewhere over 7 tons per hectare. But a master magician never explains his tricks ;-) --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:35, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Downpolated, Herr Schulz? Google gives me all of 3 hits, none of which is an explanation or definition.  Can you help plug the gap?  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:56, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure. It's when you guess a reasonable value for a data item from a single known sample that's supposed to be on the high side. I'm allowed to make up my own words on the internet, since I could print myself a nice certificate confirming that if I cared enough. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:37, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. And yes, you certainly can make up your own words.  I do it often.  Sometimes, I even discover they're completely unknown as far as I can reasonably ascertain, so I claim their authorship.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:14, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * We like to think that we're a bit better at farming than the French. Alansplodge (talk) 08:06, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * With this ring, I thee fool, for dumb or dumber, in gullibility and in naivite ... 'til unmasking do us part. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:06, 21 September 2013 (UTC)