Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2014 July 26

= July 26 =

Any disproof to the conspiracy theory that companies could make products last forever but don't feel like it
People often say that companies "could" make products that last forever (this is usually said of tires, light bulbs or razor blades, etc.) but they just don't wanna. They intentionally make products that will wear out so that people will have to buy replacements. This seems like an oversimplification to me, and the laws of supply and demand would seem to suggest that if there were a demand for a tire that lasted forever and someone could produce it, that the market would dictate a price that was satisfactory to both the consumer and the producer. However, are there any articles or studies I could read that seek to disprove this conspiracy theory? A similar conspiracy theory, by the way, is that doctors and pharmaceutical companies WANT us to be sick so we can keep using their products and services.--Jerk of Thrones (talk) 06:22, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * It's not really a conspiracy theory; it's a long established and well documented business practice known as planned obsolescence. You might find that article, and the links therein, helpful.--Shantavira|feed me 06:30, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Only some of those examples apply. I'm not talking about Apple releasing new operating systems and new models, but I am talking about stuff that physically breaks or wears out due to regular use.  In general, wouldn't a company have to have the market cornered, or at least be colluding with all its competitors in order for this strategy to work?.  Otherwise a competitor who wasn't on board with the conspiracy could just make a more durable product and siphon away all the customers who were frustrated with the stuff that breaks easily.--Jerk of Thrones (talk) 06:38, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Stuff that wears out in time for you to buy a new one has a "lifespan limiting design". The pill companies don't care if people are sick, so long as they think they are. Not enough shoppers could afford perfect tires on their wages. It's the same reason they don't buy jets. There's a demand, only so far as wanting it. Things have to be affordable to sell. Affordable stuff for poorer people is naturally cheap. If companies had to make great stuff at great cost for "the 99%", but not sell it to most of them, they'd fold and nobody would have anything. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:04, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Like, for example, you don't see "planned obsolescence" in the world of, say, shoes or coats or something. I can pay hundreds of dollars for a pair of expertly made leather shoes that I *know* will last 10-15 years or I can pay a fraction of that price for shoes made out of some kind of synthetic crap that won't last a year.  In this case, the consumer has a choice, and there isn't just one kind of shoe available that wears out much sooner than one would prefer.  So maybe planned obsolescence works well only in certain industries?  What defines these industries?--Jerk of Thrones (talk) 06:47, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * It reminds me of the saying "two can keep a secret if one of them is dead". Too many people would have to be in the know for it not to leak out eventually. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:54, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * There is a contra-example that came to mind —but that mind-partition seems to have been reformatted. Anyway, ... I believe there is a common household product that is virtually indestructible, and everybody that wanted it already had it (and they were handed down within families, etc.), so that eventually there was no need to produce them anymore; therefore, the product was discontinued and/or the company went out of business.  I thought it was Corelle, but apparently not.  Farberware? —No.   Uhmmm... Corningware?  Maybe; the article mentions that it was discontinued in the '90s, the brand was sold, and reintroduced in 2001.  ~:71.20.250.51 (talk) 07:37, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * LOL, your description also made me think of Le Creuset, but I'm sure that company still does a very brisk business. Their cast iron cookware is fabulously expensive, prettily designed and lasts forever.  But I think the way they stay in business by continually coming out with novel shapes and colors.  People probably try to collect them or something.--Jerk of Thrones (talk) 07:55, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I am informed that Parnell were a manufacturer of washing machines in the UK in the 1950s and 60s, and their machines lasted so well the company went bust because people just weren't replacing them: and it is far cheaper to keep existing customers than it is to get new ones.--TammyMoet (talk) 15:46, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * There are two problems here. First, people don't want to pay more than they need for an object of limited use.  If I am baking a cake and need a half-oz of lemon extract and never expect to make this cake again, I am much more likely to buy the 1-0z bottle for $.99 than the "last forever" 1-gallon bottle for $2.50.  Same applies for items that go in and out of style, and so forth.


 * The second problem is due to accidental breakage. Nothing really lasts for ever. In this case you need a reliable measurement of average lifetime (the bulb don't wear out, but they break when the lamp is knocked  over.  If you can demonstrate to and convince the consumer that the cost for average lifetime is low enough (and the difference in price not too extreme) you'll get willing customers.  Even then, what do I do with my great-great grandfather's collection of wear-free horsehoes, and my neverbreak 13" B/W 4:3 analog TV with the neverfade mono speakers?


 * For refuations of the above and other economic fallcies, see http://www.capitalism.net/ where you can download the standard college text in free PDF format. μηδείς (talk) 18:00, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * No physical product could possibly, literally last forever - so it's always going to be some very long lifespan that we're talking about here.


 * A great example of manufacturers making very long lived products is light bulbs. Why are manufacturers moving over to LED bulbs that last so long that they can't adequately estimate their lifespan?  They could refuse to make them and continue to make incandescants that fizzle out much sooner?  Compact Disks have a longer life than old Vinyl disks because the latter are so easily damaged.  Cars can be expected to routinely surpass 100,000 miles - but even 50 years ago, a car with that many miles on it was a rarity.


 * Other non-physical products can last forever though...computer software can (in principle) do that - except with technological progress, it becomes obsolete - and computers that can run it cease to exist.


 * In the end, it's about monopolies. If you have a monopoly on a product, you can indeed make a shoddy version of it that you know will have to be replaced often.  However, if you have competition in the same market, then if your competitor's product lasts longer than yours, you could lose all of your sales.  In those situations, the risk of saturating the market with immortal products is less than the risk of being undercut by a competitor - so increasing the life of your product makes sense.


 * SteveBaker (talk) 19:53, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Steve, haven't you read your own policy on answering questions? Obviously paraphrasing the person immediately before you is not forbidden by your encyclical, but aren't you at least supposed to give a reference? μηδείς (talk) 01:58, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


 * It only makes sense if buyers know that your product has a longer life expectancy. The Market for Lemons is probably the most relevant article. -- BenRG (talk) 23:43, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I have some familiarity with the history of incandescent light bulbs. There was published research from the 1880's onward showing that the longer a lightbulb was designed to last, the lower was the efficiency (or efficacy). There is a tradeoff: if a bulb provides lots of lumens (or candlepower in the older terms) at a given voltage, and you operate it at a lower voltage, it will last longer but provide less light per watt consumed (and with a more reddish hue). Drop the voltage 10% and you double the lifetime, increase the voltage 10% and you halve the lifetime, approximately. If you are obsessed with maximizing the lifetime of your incandescent bulbs, then buy 240 volt bulbs and they will provide a reddish glow at 120 volts for a v-e-r-y l-o-n-g time. But you will need more bulbs, consuming more power, to provide the same illumination. It is cheaper overall to operate the bulbs at a proper voltage, for a shorter lifetime, at higher efficacy, unless you get free electricity.Today, it is supposed to be cheaper overall to replace them with LEDs, but too often people report early failure of the extremely expensive LED bulbs. Edison (talk) 03:50, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


 * See durable goods. Many household durable goods, like furniture or toilets, could last several generations.  Other items, like glasses (either drinking glasses of optical glasses) don't really wear out, but will tend to get broken, given enough time.  Items without moving parts or electronics tend to last longer.


 * Also, another way to make it in the company's interest to make things durable is if they offer a long warranty period. Cars with a 10 year warranty tend to be well built, and Craftsman tools, which carry a lifetime warranty, are often well built, too.  StuRat (talk) 04:10, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Books-A-Million (International shipping)
Does Books-A-Million ships internationally. I am looking for this book, Power Training for Sport : Plyometrics for Maximum Power Development by Tudor O. Bompa. Unfortunately, The new edition of this book is not available in amazon.com except used one which I do not prefer. Please let me know. Thanks in advance.--180.234.254.176 (talk) 07:08, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * It would help if you said where you were wanting it shipped to; everywhere is international to somewhere else. You appear to be based in Bangladesh. Books-a-Million, in their Shipping Info page seems to be US and Canada Only. ISBN 9780889626294 gives a list of online bookstores and libraries, with a quicklink to the book; I can only suggest that you try each of them. Amazon Germany seem to have it, I don't know where they ship to. CS Miller (talk) 11:23, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The Wikipedia article about Plyometrics is free for you to read. 84.209.89.214 (talk) 13:38, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Geography: Which Brampton, UK? A1 road (Great Britain)
A1 road (Great Britain) contains an error, it point to Brampton in Canada, as opposed to Brampton, England. I'd fix it, but there's multiple Bramptons, and I'm not sure which to link to. -- Zanimum (talk) 15:06, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Which section are you considering? If you're talking about this part "The planned A14 Ellington to Fen Ditton scheme would require a new junction at Brampton, north of which the A1 will be widened to a three-lane dual carriageway from Brampton to the Brampton Hut interchange. The new two-lane dual carriageway section of the A14 would run parallel with the A1 on this section.[32]" then it's the Brampton in Cambridgeshire. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:44, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * We have an article, Brampton Hut interchange, which is near Huntingdon. Apparently there used to be a wooden hotel building on stilts there, which was known locally "the Brampton Hut". This confirms Tammy's answer above, and the correct link is Brampton, Cambridgeshire, although our article says it's in Huntingdonshire (there's been some tinkering with county boundaries in recent decades). Alansplodge (talk) 16:24, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note that the modern non-metropolitan district of Huntingdonshire is not identical with the historic county of the same name. Brampton is (currently) both in Cambridgeshire and Huntingdonshire, although this wasn't the case before 1 October 1984. Tevildo (talk) 17:01, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks - would it be possible to clarify the lead of the article to reflect that? Alansplodge (talk) 21:08, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. I've modified the text to read "Brampton is a village near Godmanchester south west of Huntingdon, in the Huntingdonshire non-metropolitan district of Cambridgeshire." Tevildo (talk) 21:20, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Splendid - thank you. Alansplodge (talk) 23:01, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Question for people that lived in the UK between (1950-1970)
This question is for anyone that has lived in the UK between 1950 to 1970. How often did you see a non-white person where you lived? In the area you lived, was there a lot of immigration ? How many immigrant kids did you go to school with? Thanks! YŶwechen (talk) 17:37, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * See Immigration to the United Kingdom since Irish independence and Foreign-born population of the United Kingdom for our relevant articles. This should (theoretically) be more reliable than the individual memories of the RD regulars. Tevildo (talk) 17:49, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you, but I kindly request personal memories if possible, thank you. YŶwechen (talk) 18:07, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Then you're asking the wrong people in the wrong place. Questions here are supposed to be answered with reference to other Wikipedia article or to reliable sources. HiLo48 (talk) 19:21, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I went to Hastings Grammar School from around 1955 to 1962 and I do not recall there being any non-white pupils at that time. Certainly none in my class. --rossb (talk) 22:07, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * As mentioned above, you should ask this at Yahoo Answers or some such website, and you should refer to people as who, not that, just as you would refer to a man as he, not it. μηδείς (talk) 01:51, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * If you're going to provide incorrect advice, please also provide suitable citations supporting it. There is nothing wrong with using that for a person.  See Merriam-Webster here; scroll down the page to the 4th word "that", sense 1, and read the "Usage note" below.  Or if you want a British dictionary, see the Macmillan here, sense 7. --50.100.189.160 (talk) 05:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I grew up in the Black Country in that timescale, and there were plenty of BAME people where I lived - Smethwick, Langley Green, Sandwell, Oldbury, West Midlands. I'm part of a local heritage project and we think the first mixed race marriage was in the 1800s in Smethwick. The ones I grew up with obviously came across as part of the recruitment drive in the Commonwealth, as spearheaded by Enoch Powell. From memory I think my primary school class was about 40% indigenous white, 15% of Eastern European heritage, 20% Indian sub-continent, 15% Afro-Caribbean. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:36, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I grew up in rural North Wales, and I can exactly date the first time I saw a non-white person in the flesh, 3rd September 1969 when I started secondary school - there was one non-white kid in my school of over 600 (who happened to be in my class), his father was a doctor at a local hospital, and the family moved back to Mumbai the next summer. A bit later there was a (Hong Kong) Chinese family who ran the local take-away, but the area was certainly not a Mecca for immigration. Back then, in that part of the country, "immigrant" usually referred to people left behind by the Second World War - mostly families established by Polish ex-soldiers, or of German and Italian POWs who didn't go home after the war, or indeed English people. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 14:39, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I grew up in Leytonstone in East London. During my time at primary school in the 1960s, we only had one non-white child in our class of thirty. At secondary school - starting in 1970 - I think the proportion must have grown to approaching 10 percent; they were almost exclusively from either the West Indies or the Indian subcontinent. Alansplodge (talk) 22:25, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Here in Cumbria, I don't think I ever saw a "non-white" person, not even at school unless you count Persian as "non-white", until my second cousin married one and she brought him to live nearby. He was the object of some curiosity (I don't recall any animosity), and he turned out to be perfectly charming.    D b f i r s   21:13, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Did that surprise you? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * It's a long time ago, but I think what surprised me was that he was so "English". In those days, people from 20 miles away were regarded as "foreign".    D b f i r s   18:26, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

SVG map of Europe with country labels
Hi. I'm looking for a SVG map of Europe with country labels in the language of English. Can you help? I found a map with this information in png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_countries_map_en_2.png, and an excellent svg map with German labels. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Europe,_administrative_divisions_-_de_-_colored.svg. Any ideas? matt me (talk) 22:52, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Does work or is it too busy?  -- Jayron  32  23:32, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Too busy, I think. I want to make a quiz like this https://hickford.github.io/counties-quiz/ matt me (talk) 11:10, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * If you don't want to install an SVG Editor, such as Inkscape, remember that SVGs are text files, so a standard text editor can be used to make small changes. In the German-language map, the country labels are towards the end of the file, starting at line 26800. CS Miller (talk) 10:37, 27 July 2014 (UTC)