Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2014 June 17

= June 17 =

Image without reliable source
Can we use the image of concentration camp prisoners in Namibia in cattle cars, without having a reliable source? The image is used here http://mitchellgaumont.edublogs.org/2014/04/15/herero-genocide/ or here http://www.ezakwantu.com/Gallery%20Herero%20and%20Namaqua%20Genocide.htm#Medical%20experimentation%20in%20Africa (Herero prisoners in Cattle Cars). There doesn't appear to be a copyright but attribution without a real source is difficult. prokaryotes (talk) 11:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)


 * This is probably a question best handled by the reliable sources noticeboard – or even the Help Desk – instead of the Ref Desk. There are several issues that come out of not knowing the provenance of the images. From a reliability standpoint, if we don't have good sourcing information, then we have difficulty establishing the authenticity and accuracy of the images.  Unfortunately, human history has rather a lot of instances of individuals being kept in concentration camps under execrable conditions.  Without some sourcing information, we run the risk that these images may have been inadvertently (or even deliberately) mislabeled or mischaracterized or duplicated, and actually be drawn from another conflict or another country or another time.
 * Copyright likely isn't an issue if the images date to when we believe they do, but again, if these were slightly more recent images that had been inadvertently mischaracterized there could be a problem there, too.
 * Finally, from an attribution standpoint, even if the material has fallen into the public domain by now we still owe it to the image's creators and subsequent curators to give appropriate credit for their work in creating and preserving these photographs. There weren't a lot of digital cameras in 1905; presumably someone in the last twenty or thirty years scanned a physical print from someone's collection.  Generally speaking, I would be reluctant to trust the reliability of material posted on a website or blog that failed to provide this type of attribution. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:00, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks TenOfAllTrades for your feedback. Well, i think i leave it for now then. The image could be very symbolic since there are parallels to the deportation of Jews during the Holocaust. prokaryotes (talk) 13:12, 17 June 2014 (UTC)


 * It's worth mentioning that "there doesn't appear to be a copyright" is irrelevant in most jurisdictions because works like photographs are copyrighted by default. Essentially, anyone who takes a photograph automatically owns the copyright on it unless they explicitly put the photo into the public domain or license it under some kind of open "copyleft" setup.   What you need is either a concrete permission to publish (eg if the image is CC-BY-SA or taken on behalf of the US government or something) - or solid grounds to publish despite the copyright under the fair use provision - or proof that the copyright has expired. SteveBaker (talk) 15:24, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

The image Surviving_Herero.jpg is already in commons here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Surviving_Herero.jpg So you can use that. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 06:03, 18 June 2014 (UTC)