Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2014 November 30

= November 30 =

Can I use this, and if so how?
This criminal trial transcript is available: http://fg.j3224.co.uk/RvGParkJudgesSummingUp.pdf

Can it be used for the article: Lady in the Lake trial? If so, what citation guidelines do I need follow? Alligators1974 (talk) 01:18, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * No, it cannot be used in an article. The website hosting this material (fg.j3224.co.uk) does not qualify as a reliable source, the document claims to be subject to copyright (and not by the website hosting it), and we have no means to verify that it is authentic. (in future, please use the Reliable sources/Noticeboard for such queries). AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:24, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Type of home design
Today I saw a house of a design that I've seen before and I'd like to know what the design or roof type is called. It was a two story home. The roof was flat and the second story exterior was quite heavily sloped. The exterior only widened maybe a foot or so from the top of the house to where the eaves hung over the first story. Yes, there were eaves but, as I described, they were very small as far as horizontal distance goes. Is there a name for this design? Thanks, Dismas |(talk) 02:16, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Saltbox? -- Jayron  32  02:34, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Not a saltbox, I know saltboxes. I realize now that I left out the fact that the second story exterior wall was slanted on all four sides.  There were no gable ends.  Dismas |(talk) 02:43, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm having a hard time visualizing exactly what you're describing. Something like a mansard roof? Deor (talk) 08:21, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, like that. But the top of the house was flat, from what I could see.  And there was no upper pitch to it.  It was all one pitch which was very steep.  Though I did notice that that article says "The upper slope of the roof may not be visible from street level when viewed from close proximity to the building."  Dismas |(talk) 09:03, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Mansards are often like that, with a minimally-sloped roof up top, or the mansard forms a parapet that hides a roof at a lower elevation.  Acroterion   (talk)   01:31, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Locking children in car
In which US states is it illegal to let your child wait in the car?--Kopiersperre (talk) 20:41, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The 20 states which have such a law are marked on a map in a Mother Jones article from this year: "Where Is It a Crime to Leave a Kid Alone in a Parked Car?". You can click on each state for details. This kidsandcars.org site only lists 19 states (the list is at least two years old), but you can read the actual legalese text for each state. ---Sluzzelin talk  21:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * That's very interesting. I wonder if (and where) there is a distinction between locking the child in the car (similar to how, if one puts a dog in a car and then closes the door, the dog can't get out), and leaving the child in the car (the child is 6 or over, and can quite happily release the handbrake, open the door and exit the vehicle, or assert its wishes in other ways, if it is determined to do so).


 * Leaving an 11-or-so child "home alone" for extended periods of time (a week?) in the UK often leads to the parent being arrested. But "in car alone" for ten minutes while the parent goes into a shop for a pint of milk? For 20 minutes? For 30 minutes? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:48, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Apparently, it's dangerous to either leave an American kid locked in the car or free in the parking lot. You could take him into the mall with you, but why risk it? Leaving him with a relative or family friend seems reasonable, until you hear they abduct 76% of found missing children. Thankfully, there's a National Safe Place (although our article says it provides a "safe place", in "scare quotes"). InedibleHulk (talk) 22:27, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Imagine that the child refuses to come shopping and wants to stay in the car. Must the parents beat the child to obedience, that the parents can follow the law?--Kopiersperre (talk) 22:38, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * If the kid is so big you have to resort to violence to control him, he's probably big enough to not be subject to that child-endangerment law. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:56, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Not everyone who beats their kid does it a last resort. Often just the easiest. Black Friday sales don't exactly encourage patience. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:48, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Koperspierre, if you think that any parent whose child displays obstinacy is somehow forced to use beating, then I hope you're not a parent. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  03:28, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I can't understand why you would let them wait in the car. Why would they want to do that? Surely you mean make them wait in the car?  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  10:48, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Sometimes (and this may be hard for you to understand, but trust me, it DOES happen) parents will ask their children what they wish to do from time to time. Some parents don't spend 18 years ordering their children around 24 hours a day.  Some parents do, once in a while, ask their children for what they want to do, instead of commanding them to do everything during every waking hour.  -- Jayron  32  12:18, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * When I was ten years old, I was locked in a car with my baby niece while mum and dad went to the pub. The kid couldn't stop crying, and I was, "What am I supposed to do with this thing?" We get along much better these days, however (30 years later). I just wouldn't recommend it. Also, I wasn't asked if I wanted to stay in the car with the baby. I was told to. If I had been asked what I wanted to do, I would have gone with them, so they could share the responsibility of little crying baby while I happily sipped a glass of coke.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  15:18, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, but there are parents who do ask their kids what they want to do. I know that doesn't match your experience.  But your experience is not necessarily universal.  See Deor's experience below.  -- Jayron  32  15:28, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * As a child, I would have preferred going to the dentist to accompanying my mother while she shopped for clothes or food—and my attitude to shopping has not improved with the years (unless you count browsing in bookstores). I spent a lot of time reading in parking lots in those days, though I suspect contemporary children might prefer to play electronic games on hand-held devices. Deor (talk) 14:41, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * OTOH, my mother, who's had 4 children so far (she's only 89), has always said she would prefer to go through childbirth than go to the dentist. :)  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:14, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Back to the question at hand, and the side questions everyone seems to be asking: This is the reason why it is illegal to lock a small child in a car while you go into the mall to shop. If even one of those articles doesn't fill you with rage and/or disgust and/or pity, you are a horrible person.  -- Jayron  32  15:49, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, you need to be careful when looking up laws regarding stuff along these lines. For some reason, there are many rules of thumb out there regarding children left alone that people widely assume to be laws, but which have little or no basis in the law books. For example, as my daughter got older, we asked friends about when it was okay to start leaving her home by herself and were confidently told that kids could be left alone at 11, could babysit siblings at 10, babysit strangers at 13, and all kinds of self-contradictory stuff. Matt Deres (talk) 16:44, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * It can get insanely hot inside a parked car and children die fairly frequently from parents and other care-givers stupidly shutting them inside. This US-centric article  says: "Since 1998 there have been at least 636 documented cases of heatstroke deaths of children in vehicles.  This data and study shows that these incidents can occur on days with relatively mild (i.e., ~ 70 degrees F) temperatures and that vehicles can reach life-threatening temperatures very rapidly."...and for those who say "Well, it's only for 10 minutes"...take a look at the graph at the bottom of that article showing that even in 70 degF weather, the car can easily reach life-threatening temperatures within 10 minutes.  We tend to use our own bodies as guidance here - but thermoregulation is nowhere near as good in small children as it is in adults - and their surface-area to mass ratio is much MUCH higher than in adults - so this is an incredibly dumb analogy.  So is "I've done this loads of times and nothing bad happened".  Since people are not too smart about reading statistics and looking at graphs (including at least one respondent here)...we have to pass laws. SteveBaker (talk) 15:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Even police dogs aren't above the laws of thermodynamics. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:13, 3 December 2014 (UTC)