Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2014 September 20

= September 20 =

To people in the Southern tier USA, or Latin America: Notice more Canadian Geese sticking around?
The Canada_goose is traditionally a migratory bird that "flys south for the winter" and returns to Canada in the warmer months. The article above states that there are a number of Canadian geese that have forsaken this tradition and are now full-time residents of warmer climates. I was wondering if you all have personally noticed this in your daily lives. I live in the Southern tier of the USA and have noticed over the last several years more and more Canadian geese that are here year round, even on a 100 degree Summer day. What is causing this? Are these birds expressing some kind of free will? Is it a chain of command from their leaders? Global climate change? (although that doesn't make sense since warming should limit the bird's habitat, not expand it). Thanks. Zombiesturm (talk) 17:44, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Canada geese are certainly year-round residents here in North Carolina. They stay all year.  -- Jayron  32  17:57, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Birds go where the food is. If food is abundant, they don't necessarily migrate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:32, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Source? Thanks in advance. Zombiesturm (talk) 18:36, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * This site and this site and this site report Canada Geese as year round residents as far north as Maryland, New Jersey, and Illinois. National Geographic confirms the changes in migration habits, but does not assign causes.  This site notes the wide availability of "waste seed" from farming operations as a likely cause.  This site proposes the "suburban" environment which provides ample food and protection from predators as being a primary cause of permanent year-round non-migratory populations of Canada geese.-- Jayron  32  20:46, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I hope those give you a start at researching your question. Also, you can find MANY more sites like this using a tool I found online called http://www.google.com. If you type phrases like "canada geese year round" you can find many sources to help you. I would try variations on that phrase. Google also features ways to refine your search to news sites, scholarly articles and journals, and books as well. -- Jayron  32  20:46, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I forget... What was it that Oscar Wilde said about sarcasm? How does one find that information?    —71.20.250.51 (talk) 22:37, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I find your tone unhelpful and snide. I do not and WILL NOT use Google for anything.  Thank you. Zombiesturm (talk) 16:42, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Oddly enough, even if I am snide, you can still find the answer to your question using Google. You don't actually punish me for snideness by refusing to use Google to find the answer to your question, you know.  All that happens is you don't find the answer to your question.  I get to go on being snide even if you don't use Google.  -- Jayron  32  17:24, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Because I can ask here. Zombiesturm (talk) 17:30, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * There are other web search engines out there, and it's honestly rude, lazy, and a waste of everyone's time to ask here just because you're not willing to do any work yourself. Refusal to try to learn for oneself is nothing to be proud of, and it's just plain stupid to get upset when someone tries to help you gain a means of learning.  Regardless of Jayron's tone, he did try to help and provide you with additional means of finding more information in the future, and you go and fuss and even yell at him.  Ian.thomson (talk) 17:42, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I trust the friendly and knowledgeable Wikipedia community more than a corporatised, merchant-oriented machine brain. Is that a bad thing?  No. Zombiesturm (talk) 17:55, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I guarantee that, except for those who state that their posts are anecdotal or from personal experience, the answers you get here were most likely found through a search engine (even if they only searched Wikipedia, much of the information in our articles comes from citations found through search engines). Users who answer your questions have learned to think about what information they're looking for, find, and choose to use.  By suggesting that you Google the info for yourself, Jayron was pushing you to learn that skill for yourself, which is better than merely refusing to use a source of information.  When you asked for a fish, Jayron handed you a pole and pointed at the nearest lake and you threw it back at him because you don't want to get wet.  Critical thinking is always better than censorship, even if the censorship only affects you.  Relying on the critical thinking of others is just as bad as not relying on critical thinking at all.  If you are going to claim that you do think critically about the answers you get here, then you have no excuse for not looking up your own information.  Ian.thomson (talk) 18:13, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * (EC) Precisely. And this wasn't the first time you've attacked editors who've tried to help you either Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 July 7. You shouldn't expect people to continue to offer help if you're going to keep it up even if you have toned down your ridiculous personal attacks [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities&diff=prev&oldid=615963633].
 * In fact right below you've shown how problematic your behaviour is. Rather than read a source which was provided, you simply attacked it as unreliable (and the contributor of said source). Perhaps the source isn't reliable, but actually being a wikipedian is about more than just deciding which sources are reliable any automatically dismissing anything which isn't. Sometimes, it's worth checking out a less reliable source, if it provides info that may be useful perhaps in looking for reliable sources.
 * In the case below, the source, reliable or not, provided quotation and discussed the sudden appearance of a turkey after previous discussions of a goose. That itself is a good sign that perhaps the source is right, even if unreliable. And if there are doubts, the book itself can be checked, the claim is simple enough (whether it's a goose or a turkey I mean, not the reason for a change or why people may be confused) that you don't really need to worry about WP:OR. And it isn't like there was even a reliable source provided for the claim it was a goose. You seemed to recognise this when it was pointed out to you, but you could have come to the same conclusion by reading the source, or at least been more polite about it in the first instance.
 * Nil Einne (talk) 18:19, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Since I started this, I'm hatting this as well. It was rude of me, and for that I apologize.  I'm closing down this tangent as it doesn't go anywhere except for giving a venue for people saying mean things about each other.  I said mean things too, so don't think I am excusing myself for that.  I am not.  I am more guilty than anyone here, but that doesn't mean this is a useful direction for this thread to go in.  It needs to stop.  I am stopping it.  -- Jayron  32  18:40, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Here in Detroit, the Canada Goose has totally replaced regular geese, and there aren't many swans or ducks left, either. We may be their next target for termination. :-) StuRat (talk) 22:54, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Anecdotal evidence, of course, but I sometimes see Canada geese all winter even here in southern Ontario. Sometimes they start flying south in, like, January, and fly back a few weeks later...at least, they are flying in that V-pattern, whether they actually go anywhere I don't know. Again not the most reliable evidence, but migrating geese used to be as synonymous with fall as leaves changing colour and October Thanksgiving, and they would definitely be gone all fall and winter and come back around March or April.Adam Bishop (talk) 23:34, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Our article makes quite explicit the boom in range and population from the Fifties:


 * By the early 20th century, over-hunting and loss of habitat in the late 19th century and early 20th century had resulted in a serious decline in the numbers of this bird in its native range. The giant Canada goose subspecies was believed to be extinct in the 1950s until, in 1962, a small flock was discovered wintering in Rochester, Minnesota...


 * In recent years, Canada goose populations in some areas have grown substantially, so much so that many consider them pests for their droppings, bacteria in their droppings, noise, and confrontational behavior. This problem is partially due to the removal of natural predators and an abundance of safe, man-made bodies of water near food sources, such as those found on golf courses, in public parks and beaches, and in planned communities. Due in part to the interbreeding of various migratory subspecies with the introduced non-migratory Giant subspecies, Canada geese are frequently a year-around feature of such urban environments.[17]


 * In 2000, the North American population for the geese was estimated to be between 4 million and 5 million birds.[54] A 21-year study in Wichita, Kansas, found the number of geese increase from 1,600 to 18,000 birds.[54]


 * In my childhood in the 70's you'd see flocks flying overhead, which was rare enough to make people go outside when they heard the calls. They were so rare on the ground as to be exotic, and we would drive an hour with bags of popcorn to feed the geese on the Schuylkill River at Fairmount Park in Philadelphia.  Now they overwinter everywhere that there is open water and grass or plowed fields.  I counted well over 1,000 in a squarish plowed farmer's field that had about 50 X 50 geese, spread out a yard or so from each other, (so the 1,000 is conservative), this last winter, the most I have ever seen at once. μηδείς (talk) 00:34, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The increased numbers are dramatic enough that I wonder if there hasn't been a genetic change in the subspecies that grew so much in population, such as laying more eggs in a brood. Ultimately, we may have to start eating them to bring the numbers down.  I assume they are edible ? StuRat (talk) 12:59, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am sure they are. The reformed Scrooge gave Cratchit's family a goose for Christmas at the end of A Christmas Carol. Zombiesturm (talk) 16:43, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * They are edible, but I believe they are protected by the 1994 migratory birds act. μηδείς (talk) 17:09, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, it was a turkey. See this page, cited in A Christmas Carol. Tevildo (talk) 16:57, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * That's not a reputable source for anything. As a Wikipedia editor, you should know how to critically judge sources better than that.  Who are you to contradict the original author of the statement anyhow?  Zombiesturm (talk) 17:08, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The text of the book - that is, the words that Dickens himself used - states that it was a turkey. The Realbook article suggests a reason (namely, the previous scene where the Ghost of Christmas Present shows Scrooge the Cratchits eating a goose) why people often think Scrooge's gift was also a goose.  But it wasn't. Tevildo (talk) 17:20, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok yeah, you are right. Good call. Zombiesturm (talk) 17:30, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Here is some info from Environment Canada about migration or the lack thereof. They actually have stopped, or at least they have changed their migration patterns over the past several decades, for various reasons. And you certainly can hunt them and eat them. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:24, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I actually discussed this a few weeks or months ago in relation to a different question. The source looks to also mention this although I believe I provided one or more specific examples. Migratory Canada geese can often be hunted during specific hunting seasons despite the Canada/US Migratory Birds agreement as game birds. And particularly relevant to the point of discussion, in some US states (can't remember about Canada), non migratory i.e. resident Canada geese can be hunted for even longer, or even all year round (well I can't specifically recall this but the source above says so). Nil Einne (talk) 18:19, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * By "looks to also mention" did you mean "also mentions"? I have not heard such a barbarism since I lived with a girl from Indiana freshman year. To hear this from a self identified Malaysian makes me fear you overpaid for an undereducation. μηδείς (talk) 02:35, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
 * He's fixin' to ask about that. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:13, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I should clarify to Nil that my statement above is just joshing, not an attack. μηδείς (talk) 19:12, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It was only 2 more links Reference_desk/Archives/Science/2014 June 19 (well 3 if you count our article), still it may be useful. Perhaps also some useful info in this previous discussion Reference desk/Archives/Science/2012 June 16. Nil Einne (talk) 18:26, 21 September 2014 (UTC)