Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2015 December 12

= December 12 =

Collective predisposition
Is there a name for the predisposition towards doing most things with family/close social circles in a communal or collective manner? For example if an individual thinks the following: that eating should only be done at the diner table together at the same time; locks on bedroom doors are rude since it forms a barrier; you should adhere to the same denomination and attend church together; immediate family members should spend as much time together as possible etc. The antonym for this predisposition has many terms such as loner, distant etc. The only term I have ever heard used for such human behavior is "extreme extrovertedness" but nothing written. Contrib raati (talk) 02:57, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * How about "family traditions"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:25, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Since you're asking for a word for something, maybe you should move this to Reference_desk/Language. You may also try to ask on English Language & Usage Stack Exchange, but if you do, please link both ways, that is, add a link to that question that points here, and add a link here that points to your question on that site.  &#x2013; b_jonas 23:04, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Origin of dancing and singing
Has anyone noticed that a mother rocking a baby, either in her arms or strapped to her chest, makes dance-like movements with her feet if she's standing up? Could this be the origin of all dancing? And perhaps also singing, as mothers are known to sing to babies as well? Viriditas (talk) 10:08, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * There must be a term for that, used in psychology, to study/describe this theory that we reproduce early feelings and behaviors from when we were babies or even from when we were still inside the womb. Your question is very valid, personally when I think of these Harley Davidson riders and of their passion for vibrating engine, analysing and enjoying the vibration frequencies etc, when I wonder why is it so enjoyable to sit on a big vibrating engine and feeling its huge power and hearing its overwhelming sound, when I try to think of the deep psychological reason why riding these bikes is so enjoyable, sometimes I guess it reminds them the big vibrating overwhelming blow their father was doing on their belly when they were babies... Hopefully someone will add more precise psychologic definitions and links? Akseli9 (talk) 10:56, 12 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Vocalizations and stereotyped motions are part of pair bonding and courtship ritual throughout the tetrapods, from croaking frogs to rumbling and shaking crocodiles to boobies and swans all of which are so commonly demonstrated I will limit myself to only this precious performance. μηδείς (talk) 03:30, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure nor convinced we are taking about the same thing, and that video doesn't really demonstrate what I'm taking about. Most human dancing and singing has little to do with mating behavior and more to do with interpretive oral history as a pre-literate (or pre-written) information repository.  I'm arguing that one can see the early vestiges of dance moves and song in the maternal relationship between a woman and her child. I'm also imagining that at some point, humans mimicked this behavior and used it independently from its original maternal context and applied it for more formal rituals.  Further, I can imagine that a man mimicking this behavior might be viewed as a good mate for various reasons. What I'm really talking about are the mechanics of dancing, which result from the movement of a woman rocking her child, and the vocal technique of singing a baby to sleep.  I'm saying that early human dancing and singing might have evolved from this maternal practice.  I don't agree that it is necessarily instinctual or innate, but that it could be a cultural tradition originally passed down from watching a woman interact with her infant. The fact is, "the vast majority of animals just don't seem to have the cognitive capacity to anticipate a beat and move to it". Viriditas (talk) 07:25, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * You can find information about the origin of dance at the Wikipedia article and section: Dance. -- Jayron 32 16:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a very interesting hypothesis that may have already been proposed by academics. It is bound to remain speculative, but it certainly is the kind of thing that should be discussed by archaeologists and anthropologists. Viriditas, you're tending to assume that singing and dancing have a common origin and that mightn't be the case. If singing is about storytelling, then it may have arisen, like much of our culture, from people sitting around a fire in an evening - something no other animals do. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:22, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

UK rail map conundrum
Ten years ago I picked up a UK National Rail map (showing every station) at my local rail station, which has been very useful, and although there haven't been many changes since then I thought it was about time I got hold of a new one. But upon enquiring at the same (major) rail station I'm told they no longer produce one. A web search shows there are plenty of PDFs available to download, but I would only be able to print those at A4 size: virtually unreadable. My original map is more like A1 size, double sided, and folds up twice in each direction. Although the original map was free, I would be happy to pay for one, but as far as I can tell, I can't even buy one. Is an up-to-date useable national rail map really not available? How do rail travellers even manage without a map?--Shantavira|feed me 15:37, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * They use their mobile phone with "apps" like this one: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/84874.aspx which exist for any subway or railway network everywhere. It is a different mind-set for a different world we live in, no more 20th century, no more big picture, no more global idea of things... Akseli9 (talk) 15:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ...and no more "socialized" railway networks... Akseli9 (talk) 17:22, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You could get a pdf plotted out at A1 by a reprographics firm and fold it yourself, but it certainly wouldn't be free. Mikenorton (talk) 15:56, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * That should be affordable, given the comfort of using or at least owning a nice map the ten following years. Note that if the pdf is by projectmapping uk (www.projectmapping.co.uk) you may need to get a written permission before proceeding to any reproduction. I wonder if this does this mean a permission written on paper. Otherwise it would be "typed" ? --Askedonty (talk) 20:18, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Suppose you want to get to (say) Dover Priory station in Folkestone from (say) Rochdale...go to Google Maps, type in "Dover Priory", click "Directions", type "Rochdale", click on the train icon and you'll get a choice of four train times, information on how to get through the tube system in London, or travel direct without doing that.


 * You can do this on any computer, any phone, tablet, whatever. If you have an android phone and watch, you can just say "OK Google, Maps, Train, Dover priory to Rochdale" and you're done.  The same handy little box will let you book your tickets, find something to read along the way, ask more questions on the Wikipedia Reference Desk, etc, etc.


 * Honestly, dragging a dog-eared sheet of A1 paper around with you is just the teensiest bit behind the times.
 * SteveBaker (talk) 18:10, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I've never had a book or paper map that needed recharging every day... Tevildo (talk) 18:59, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ...and needs to be replaced every 3 or 4 years, costing each time hundreds of euros/pounds/dollars, because it's already obsolete or because the battery is worn out. Akseli9 (talk) 19:27, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Your observations would be clever and perceptive if people didn't already require mobile phones for other purposes. But according to http://media.ofcom.org.uk/facts/, 93% of adults in Britain own mobile phones...and we presume they'd charge them and replace them as needed even if there were no facilities to use them for mapping rail travel routes.  Since we may state that essentially everyone has a phone and (presumably) charges it up - then the lack of such a thing is not a practical reason to need a printed map.  From the perspective of map makers - it's highly likely that they've lost somewhere not too far short of 93% of their potential audience.  From the point of view of organizations who are expected to give them away for free - it's hard to imagine that the cost of doing so is gaining them much from the 7% of adults who truly need them. SteveBaker (talk) 03:09, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * One thing looking at a map would tell you is that Dover Priory station is in Dover (not Folkestone).  Widneymanor (talk) 20:02, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * My bad memory. Doesn't affect the point here. SteveBaker (talk) 03:09, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

OK point taken, but I can still get e.g. bus maps easily enough. I believe London has five or six different bus maps. On the other hand, Google maps shows a significant number of bus stops that in practice do not exist on the ground, as I've found to my cost, so I don't trust it.--Shantavira|feed me 08:33, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The question wasn't about busses. The thing about railway lines and railways stations is that they are large, heavy, costly,  basically immovable structures with life-spans measured in centuries.  It's easy to keep an up-to-date record of them all for the purposes of mapping.  On the other hand, changing a bus route is a stroke of the pen so to speak.  It's ridiculously easy to move bus stops, change routes and so forth.  That makes it tougher to keep the data up to date.  But the question wasn't about that...we're talking about trains here. SteveBaker (talk) 03:09, 17 December 2015 (UTC)


 * If you download your chosen pdf, adobe reader has a poster printing option that allows you to print the document across multiple sheets (of A4). You could do this and either staple them together to make a "book" or use transparent sticky tape to make a giant sheet. -- SGBailey (talk)
 * In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there can be.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:05, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * User:JackofOz, you have obviously not read Kant's Prolegomena. In any case, don't, since one actually can't. μηδείς (talk) 22:21, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

A large fold-out map was published with every edition of the National Rail Passenger Timetable book twice a year until that publication was phased out a few years ago. Specialist publisher Middleton Press of Midhurst have subsequently started to publish a basically identical book on a commercial basis. I don't know if Rail Times for Great Britain, as it's now called, has a similar map inside it; maybe give them a ring? (I have a collection of those maps of various vintages; they are truly very useful, but then I like looking at maps!)  Hassocks  5489 (Floreat Hova!)  12:14, 14 December 2015 (UTC) ...having looked again at the original question ... a free map picked up at a station actually puts me in mind of what used to be called the Network SouthEast map — a schematic map with all lines and stations in the Network SouthEast area printed on one side, a map of all rail and Underground routes in the London Travelcard zonal area on the other side (the "London Connections" map), all folding up neatly into approx. one-third A4 size. Since the demise of Network SouthEast, that side of the map goes by a different name. Now, I have collected these maps since they were introduced in 1986, and they were definitely still in print at the last timetable change in May — I remember picking one up. I hope they haven't been discontinued with effect from the December timetable change (although nothing would surprise me). Pinging. Hassocks 5489 (Floreat Hova!)  12:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Example pics of the maps distributed with the timetable books (hopefully these work): 1 2 3; example of a recent "London and South East Rail Network" map available at stations (ah yes, that's what it's called now): 4 Hassocks  5489 (Floreat Hova!)  12:34, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * In the even Hassock's advice doesn't pan out, IMO it's worth looking in to MikeNorton's and Askedonty's only's advice. This for example has A1 colour printing with fairly low weight paper. (Because these are generally for display posters and photos, they are often using quality thick paper, but 90gsm isn't too bad and I suspect you can find lower if you look around.) Unfortunately finding double sided, particularly low weight double sided will probably be a bit more difficult, but you may be able to find something particularly since you aren't printing a page that's mostly coloured. Then all you have to do is find a map that you're legally able to print and that will work well when printed at a low size (resolution, size of font etc). If you really can't find anything, you should be able to at least find A3 sized printing double sided easily, perhaps even A2 reducing the number of pages you have to combine to 4 or even 2. Nil Einne (talk) 23:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Another option is to print it out yourself, on multiple pages, and staple them together. Not quite as convenient as a large, fold-out map, but it might disturb other passengers less than if you unfold that next to them. StuRat (talk) 17:50, 17 December 2015 (UTC)