Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2015 November 4

= November 4 =

Feline redirected aggression
I've recently become fascinated by feline redirected aggression (FRA). From watching it very closely (do not try this at home, folks), I have made several observations about my own peculiar furry friend. When the phenomenon occurs, it's usually because there's another cat walking by, and this upsets him from his perch or resting place. There appears to be a ten minute window after this occurs, during which time my cat cannot be approached at all by anyone. He seems to actually "transition" into a feline Hulk who will scream and yell and attack anything that moves, even when the threat has already passed, and this is very dangerous to anyone around him. I'm very curious about the physical changes going on through his body, and what causes this kind of intense aggression (pinging User:Tryptofish). After about ten minutes passes, he can be approached, comforted, touched, etc. There is still some residual aggression for about an hour afterwards, but I'm more curious about what's going on in his body during the ten minute time frame. I've had many cats and this is clearly abnormal behavior. The difference bewteen this cat and the others I've had is that he's less socialized and wasn't raised by humans as a kitten. In a way, when the FRA occurs, he reverts back to a wild beast, but only for ten minutes, and I would like to know more about the changes going on his body and in his brain. Viriditas (talk) 07:40, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * You mention this cat's upbringing relating to socializing. Other influences might be age and sexual maturity of your cat vs. the "intruder" cat. For example, our mature spayed female cat, after observing me paying attention to, then removing, a strange kitten who wandered into our house from across the street, she put on a ca. ten-minute display of being offended: turned her head away when approached, walked back and forth with her tail twitching at the tip, etc. I haven't read any material on the subject, so suggest you search on veterinary or breeders' websites or blogs that discuss feline behavior. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:08, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Cortisol comes up all the time in mammalian behaviors surrounding stress and aggression. Here's a journal article that talks about human handling and paternity, and here's one that talks specifically about cortisol and aggression. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:29, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the ping. Let me first stipulate that I'm a dog and fish person, so I don't have that much personal experience with cats, but I can certainly talk knowledgeably about similar behavioral processes in mammals generally. I very much agree with SemanticMantis about cortisol, and I can suggest some further physiological systems in which cortisol and other regulatory substances are involved. If one thinks, first, in terms of the higher systems in the brain where behaviors of this sort are determined, then the limbic system is the place to look, and I think that the amygdala is particularly likely to be involved. So I could speculate that, in cats (maybe particularly in male cats??), observing a potential rival cat leads to certain neural pathways in the amygdala and other limbic brain regions getting activated. These relatively higher brain regions, in turn, regulate the sympathetic nervous system and the hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal axis. In an overly simplistic way, this results in bodily increases in cortisol and norepinephrine, which together can help mediate such peripheral behavioral signs as what you describe. Then, cortisol and NE, in turn, can cross back into the brain and the limbic system, where they reinforce and amplify the behavioral response. It could reasonably take roughly ten minutes for the concentrations of cortisol and NE to start coming back down.


 * In humans, some people who have been in wartime situations develop posttraumatic stress disorder. They sometimes have flashbacks in which they re-experience something awful, sometimes in the form of waking up abruptly at night. Here, the triggered memory does approximately the same thing to the human brain that the detection of a rival cat does to the cat brain, and there is a similar bodily response that likewise takes several minutes to wear off. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:17, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Displaced aggression is a rather common and established idea in animal behavior. See these google results for cats.  Oddly enough, our article displacement (psychology) only mentions the behavior in humans, although I remember reading what were already old books that mentioned the concept back in the 80's.  I have to assume we have an article on this in the field of ethology in general, but have not been able to find it. μηδείς (talk) 22:14, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * This reminds me of something similar that happens with me. If I see some type of creepy insects or spiders, then for the next few minutes I feel itchy and scratch constantly.  It's not an allergic reaction, as seeing them on TV does the same thing.  I suspect some chemical is released in my body that increases the sensitivity of all skin nerves.  Probably an evolutionary adaptation to protect against fleas, lice, ticks, etc. StuRat (talk) 22:22, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Displacement refers to animals becoming hostile to univolved and less threatening targets because they have been threatened by a more dominant animal, not cats attacking their owners due to flea attacks.  Here's the article I wanted: Displacement activity. μηδείς (talk) 23:26, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The commonality is that an external stimulus causes a temporary change in neural/brain activity, presumably regulated by hormones. StuRat (talk) 23:30, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Hey, folks, I think I just discovered something else. I just gave my cat a bath 24 hours after this happened. Normally, I would expect a few light scratches, hissing, maybe even a small bite or two. Guess what? Nothing, like he was completely drained of all aggression. Tryptofish, what do you think? Did yesterday's aggression drain him so completely that he couldn't even put up a small fight during a bath? And I hope you know how much cats hate baths.... Is his brain like a dead battery now? Viriditas (talk) 03:45, 5 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Why do you give your cat a bath ? That is one of their best selling points, that they are self-cleaning.  I've had many cats, and gave one cat a bath one time in all those decades.  (The reason, he managed to get motor oil all over himself, and I didn't want him swallowing it.) StuRat (talk) 04:18, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
 * But I always draw his bath after his dram of brandy and nightly cigar. Viriditas (talk) 09:29, 5 November 2015 (UTC)


 * You might be interested in our article on sham rage, though the science it cites is pretty old. The basic story is that the brain contains a "defensive rage" circuit that is normally inhibited by the cerebral cortex, but can be released in various ways.  One thing that can activate it is threat-induced activation of the sympathetic nervous system, producing the so-called fight-or-flight response. Incidentally, the strength of the reaction you describe strikes me as abnormally intense.  Your cat might be particularly susceptible to outburst of rage, as some humans are.  (See http://trainorlab.ucdavis.edu/uploads/5/2/3/2/52321699/nelson_trainor2007.pdf for a recent review of the neural circuitry underlying aggressive behavior.) Looie496 (talk) 16:00, 5 November 2015 (UTC)


 * First of all, where is my dram of brandy? In my experience, I've never had a problem getting fish to take baths. OK, seriously, to follow up on what Looie just said, one can (at least in part) think of the cerebral cortex serving as a negative regulator of what I said about the limbic system. The cortex is (very loosely speaking) like a superego to the limbic system's id. As for the cat turning into a, um, pussy, I would imagine (but I don't know for a fact) that there could be tachyphylaxis of the receptors for cortisol, norepinephrine, etc. And the body is full of all kinds of feedback systems; see for example cortisol, so the initial rage could have led later to a turning down of the systems that mediated the rage. (Or maybe, the cat was just very tired.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:28, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

are Aynrandians vindictive?
I got into an argument with an Objectivist guy on youtube and said some nasty things (but he started it.) Could he go after me (like a certain new-age religion is reputed for doing, or have been doing), try to dox me etc? I'm not a public figure, a journalist or anything. But after all I've read, they're one weird-a$$ subculture, so now I'm a bit queasy Asmrulz (talk) 13:18, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * People are individuals. There are extremists in probably every group. How are we going to be able to answer this with any references at all? Dismas |(talk) 13:40, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * WP:CRYSTAL: Reply hazy, try again (with a request for references or a question of fact). SemanticMantis (talk) 15:24, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * See Objectivist movement, particularly the "Criticisms and responses" section. There's no record of any sort of coordinated action to suppress criticism of the movement, merely the standard internecine squabbling common to any unorthodox group of people.  That's not to say that individual devotees of Rand's work aren't vindictive, of course, but there's no evidence that Objectivism as a movement encourages such behaviour. Tevildo (talk) 16:57, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * There's no reference that's going to help us mediate an online squabble with a specific individual, if Asmrulz feels threatened he should take it to the authorities or seek professional counseling. μηδείς (talk) 17:33, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * See Res ipsa loquitur. And WP:INDENT, while we're at it. Tevildo (talk) 23:17, 4 November 2015 (UTC)