Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2016 April 8

= April 8 =

Law Degree vs. Medical Degree. Does being a doctor almost guarantee high income?
You know what your mother told you, be a doctor or a lawyer. However, even before the last downturn in 07-08, a substantial proportion of attorneys did not make much money, and I'm quite sure it's even worse now. Especially outside of the big cities.

Even there are those (I'm sure you read about this in the papers) ~10% of law school grads who don't find work at all. Even leaving out those folks (who are technically attorneys, but have zero income and extremely limited income potential), there are quite a few that work for small firms, in small towns, or work for the state or local goverment (not federal, which indeed is "prestigious") who make less than $50k yearly. (Which as you know is barely over the U.S. average income for all workers at all levels.)

On the other hand, does becoming a licensed medical doctor in the United States guarantee more of a high income? Are there doctors making $35-50k a year or even less? I've never heard of any. Thank you. Zombiesturm (talk) 13:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Medicine is still fairly booming. Even my three friends who did med school at the DeVry-owned for-profit Ross University School of Medicine in Dominica went on to get boards and get respectable jobs. I don't know what they make, but I doubt it's less than $50k. It's not what it used to be, by far. I used to work with a retired orthopedic surgeon whose practice in the 80s was so huge that they could give everyone a month of paid vacation per year, but the growth of utilization review and evidence based medicine has really put a damper on what orthopedic surgeons used to be able to do. Cardiothoracic surgeons don't make as much either: People generally get angioplasties now rather than full-on bypasses. Yet those specialty programs are just as hard to get into now. So I suppose the shorter answer is that it depends on what specialty you go into... and which specialties are good depends on who you talk to. —/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 13:26, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the info. Just wondering if there was a substantial sector (or class?) of doctors making less than $50k yearly as there are for attorneys.  Of course it takes a lot more effort to become a doctor than a lawyer.  Zombiesturm (talk) 14:55, 8 April 2016 (UTC)


 * The average US salary for a medical resident (the first 3-5 years after med school) is about $55k, with first year residents averaging a mere ~$45k despite often carrying ~$200k in debt and working upwards of 80 hours a week. After residency, doctors who haven't burnt out or screwed up enough to get fired will have earned an unrestricted license and average salaries are $180k and up.  I don't think there is any group of fully licensed doctors post-residency that have low incomes, though there are people who complete medical school and struggle or fail to complete residency, which can severely limit the ability to practice medicine.  Dragons flight (talk) 15:20, 8 April 2016 (UTC)


 * generally speaking in the USA it's far, far, far easier to get a JD degree than a medical degree....there are many, many law schools that are practically vanity granting institutions and provide little avenue toward a high paying or even reasonably paying law career...can get in with a college C average and an LSAT score in the low 140s (which is terrible) if willing to pay 50K plus a year tuition...don't think there are comparable medical schools (at least to the same scale)....68.48.241.158 (talk) 15:53, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
 * ^so in this sense it's simply a matter of supply/demand that's dictating the higher salaries of doctors on average in relation to lawyers on average, I guess..there are charity groups that employ doctors but even here the pay can't drop too far below what a doctor could command in private sector (as no doctor would work for them)...so if doctor would otherwise command 120k year, perhaps they'd work for charity group at 90k a year...whereas lawyers who would otherwise command 60k a year tops might work for charity group at 45k a year....68.48.241.158 (talk) 16:12, 8 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Entirely off base, but I was just talking to a friend, and he told me his nephew, who owns a 71' yacht moored off Manhattan, is a doctor licensed out of...Dominica. μηδείς (talk) 01:10, 11 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Just as a note, here's a 2015 US report, though those are averages from a single assessment. (Too lazy to sign in as PiousCorn) 67.246.162.117 (talk) 16:10, 11 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Those that desire to practice medicine or law should see their chosen occupation as a vocation and not a way of ensuring a high income. For a guaranty of a high income become (say) a simple plumber instead. Here in the UK some easy earn £95,000 to £100,000  Time spent in training is less and cheaper (often free). The liability insurance they have to have, is also considerably less. The working hours are less. In the US plumbers have been guaranteed higher earnings than doctors for many years - and they don't have to put up with pharmaceutical Rep's disturbing their coffee breaks. Its an oddity of human nature, that the average Joe's  are happier to pay plain speaking plumbers than doctors and lawyers that have spent years learning  speak mystifying highfalutin gobbledygook. With modern technology making a lot of the current medical skills obsolete -the future looks bleaker still.--Aspro (talk) 19:43, 11 April 2016 (UTC)


 * How about we ask the experts? The US Bureau of Labor Statistics survey for 2015. Click on "All occupations" and then on the arrows next to the table column marked "Annual Mean Wage" - there you go!  So, who is at the top? The first 10 entries are all medical professionals - with Anesthesiologists and Surgeons at the top (earning over $260,000 on average) - CEO's and Petroleum Engineers come in high on the list - but medical types utterly dominate the top of the chart.  Then there are some other management types - airline pilots - and only then, all of the various lawyers, financial managers and so forth averaging in the $130,000's.  Plumbers, pipe-fitters and steam-fitters earn (on average) $55,100 - so no, that guess is untrue (at least on average and in the USA).   Sorting by mean hourly wage doesn't alter the rankings at the top of the chart by very much - so the idea that you'd be working longer hours in order to get that money doesn't seem to hold water either. SteveBaker (talk) 14:11, 12 April 2016 (UTC)


 * The OP was asking: “does becoming a licensed medical doctor in the United States guarantee more of a high income? For anyone having the acumen to get through med school he/she should be able to become a 'self-employed' plumber, rather than an employee of a contractor to which you ref refers to. He fixes his own wage. That's what I was taking about. Also, face it. Those very few, whom have the ability to maintain the minute by minute  focus that Surgeons and Anaesthetist need in order to perform their tasks,  could equally have the focus to run a plumbing company (and  even a plumbing  company needs someone with the ability to ensure the team works together so that the company doesn’t go flat-line  or in other words broke). One has to be realistic. If one has the ability, one can receive a good remittance from whatever occupation one goes into. Take for example that high school kid that was just a mediocre software coder and drop-out. He went onto burdening this world with his ubiquitous operating systems (bought in from else where) and made himself a fortune. COI disclaimer: I use Linux If one doesn’t have any more ability than to just scape through the med exams, then one can end up no better off (and perhaps less, taking into consideration educations fees, insurance, legal suits etc) than a plumber with the same mental faculties as oneself. There is no guarantee.--Aspro (talk) 18:06, 12 April 2016 (UTC)


 * If I might echo Aspro, doctors may have high wages, but they have high overheads and start-up costs, and they rarely kill somone by nicking an artery or prescribing 300mg of Xanax, rather than Zantac. μηδείς (talk) 02:01, 13 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Speaking as a plumber, I feel the need to squash this ridiculous notion that we are all earning hundreds of thousands of pounds; apart from this one plumber in London apparently, where all professions command a much higher salary. To obtain a City and Guilds London Institute Plumbing Craft certificate, one would need to spend three years at college on a day release basis, whilst working as an apprentice on shit money, after which, one would be expected to work for a further year on shit money, as an improver. If one then decided to stay on with one's employer, one would expect, in my part of the country at least, to be paid £15-20 an hour or between £20-£30K per annum []. If one chooses the self-employed route, one could probably charge £40-50 an hour but keep it in mind that you might not be working the entire day. Expect to be spending most evenings and weekends doing unpaid work, looking at and quoting for jobs which you may not even be given. A large contract can take several days to price. Periodically, one can expect to spend hundreds of pounds attending worthless gas safety courses which take a week to complete and prevent you earning money during that time. Neither will you be paid if you are sick or choose to take a holiday. Would I rather be a doctor? Yes I would.--Ykraps (talk) 08:32, 13 April 2016 (UTC)