Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2016 August 22

= August 22 =

constitutional question
According to the Constitution of the United States of America, who becomes the President, if the incoming newly elected President is indicted, before signing and taking the oath of office? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:80C0:F800:7D2D:B256:7EC1:5C72 (talk) 22:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The president-elect does. Nothing in the constitution says that an indictment makes someone ineligible. Loraof (talk) 23:25, 22 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Indeed, as far as I know, there is nothing that legally prevents even a convicted person from assuming the office of President; which is not to say it would be politically possible, or that impeachment proceedings would not begin immediately upon taking office, but there is no legal constitutional barrier from a duly elected person from assuming the office in jail. It hasn't ever happened at the Presidential level, but see James Michael Curley for an example where a mayor of a major American city served from jail.  -- Jayron 32 01:44, 23 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Unless the crime is sufficiently severe enough as to warrant impeachment, the U.S. President technically could pardon themselves from any crimes they may be indicted for.--WaltCip (talk) 15:54, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Such a brazen act would likely result in impeachment - as well as a court case to determine whether he can actually do that. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:46, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * There's a first time for everything.--WaltCip (talk) 20:06, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * That was not about the president pardoning himself. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:16, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Dartmouth College
Dartmouth College (/ˈdɑːrtməθ/ DART-məth) is a private Ivy League research university in Hanover, New Hampshire, United States. Established in 1769 by Eleazar Wheelock, Dartmouth is one of the nine colonial colleges chartered before the American Revolution.[7]

IF DARTMOUTH COLLEGE IS LEGALLY CLASSIFIED AS A COLLEGE AND NOT A UNIVERSITY (SINCE A SUPREME COURT RULING 200 YEARS AGO !), WHY DO YOU REFER TO IT AS A UNIVERSITY? Kenneth — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.68.230 (talk) 22:18, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * (ec) To the best of my knowledge, there is no legal (or other fixed) distinction between a "college" and a "university" in the United States. Generally, "university" is used for postsecondary institutions that do research and grant graduate degrees, whereas "college" is used for ones that focus on teaching undergraduates.  By that standard, Dartmouth is clearly a "university".  But there's no clear line between the two. --Trovatore (talk) 23:26, 22 August 2016 (UTC)


 * From University:
 * A university (universitas, "a whole", "a corporation") is an institution of higher (or tertiary) education and research which grants academic degrees in various subjects. Universities typically provide undergraduate education and postgraduate education


 * Dartmouth meets these criteria. Loraof (talk) 23:23, 22 August 2016 (UTC)


 * As noted above, and to clarify, the name of the institution does not affect its status. A legal university is any institution which grants post-secondary degrees.  The name of the institution has nothing to do with it, and there are many universities in the U.S. which do not have the word "University" in the name.  For examples besides Dartmouth College, there is the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Worcester Polytechnic Institute, College of Charleston, United States Military Academy, California Institute of Technology, etc. etc.  One can probably find 100 or more U.S. Universities without the word "university" in the name.  It means nothing.  Dartmouth College is a university.  Whose name is "Dartmouth College".  -- Jayron 32 01:40, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I am not sure there is any such "legal" distinction. Do you have a reference for a distinction in law between a "college" and a "university"?  My understanding is that there is no precise distinction, but as a general rule, an institution is more likely to be called a "university" if it grants graduate degrees, if it does research, and if it works in a wide range of academic fields. --Trovatore (talk) 02:19, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * (Also, your definition of "university", now that I read it, is more inclusive than most people's usage. De Anza College, say, "grants post-secondary degrees" (Associate of Arts, possibly also Associate of Science), but hardly anyone would call it a "university".  Though I did have a friend who said he was going to USC &mdash; the "University of Southern Cupertino".) --Trovatore (talk) 02:23, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * In the U.S., universities are accredited as such by accreditation agencies such as Council for Higher Education Accreditation. To accept student federal funds (such as grant aid, federal loans, etc.) the DOE requires schools to be accredited, and degrees are generally only recognized by employers and other schools as "legitimate" if they are granted by accredited schools.  I'm not sure the word "university" itself really matters, even to these bodies.  I think they use the words "educational institution".  -- Jayron 32 08:58, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, but "the word 'university' itself" is precisely what the question is about. De Anza College is accredited, but that doesn't make it "a university" as opposed to "a college", which is the distinction the OP wanted to make.
 * As I say, I don't think there actually is a "legal" distinction between "university" and "college" in the United States. At least I've never heard of such a distinction making a legal difference.
 * But there is a distinction in the way people use the words. It's not a precise one, but it tends to be that universities
 * are broken down into smaller, semi-autonomous units, as SemanticMantis says (usually called "colleges" but sometimes "schools"; at Caltech they're called "divisions"),
 * grant graduate degrees, especially the PhD or equivalent,
 * do original research,
 * cover a wide range of disciplines.
 * Not all of these criteria are precisely defined, but Dartmouth College clearly meets them all, so it's appropriate that we call it a "university". College of Charleston is a slightly more borderline case, as it grants Master's degrees but not the PhD.  To be fair, that's true of lots of schools that actually have "university" in their names. --Trovatore (talk) 18:12, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Like William Peace University, which only grants Bachelor's degrees. -- Jayron 32 10:33, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes. Note however that our article calls it a "college".  They can call themselves whatever they want (insert quibbles here) but it appears to better fit the profile of a "college", as the term is generally used in the US, than that of a "university". --Trovatore (talk) 19:59, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * But none of that gets at the possible "legal" distinction of college vs. university. You could in principle have colleges and universities that are not accredited. Being accredited isn't what makes a university a university. In the field, my experience with nomenclature is similar to User:Trovatore's- generally institutions called universities offer graduate degrees and do research (and receive research grants). One easy test is the following: Universities almost always contain colleges in their organizational hierarchy, while colleges almost never do. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:05, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Except, of course, for every example I already gave above. -- Jayron 32 15:28, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * What? Your list of things that you claim are legally considered universities, but do not have "university" in their name? That has nothing to do with my comment, which is about whether there is a legal concept of university. Let me put it more simply: I don't believe that accreditation grants legals status of being a university, and I don't believe any of your references support that claim. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:14, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Neither do I. I'm glad you agree with me.  -- Jayron 32 16:16, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, I guess I misunderstood "A legal university is..." SemanticMantis (talk) 21:44, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The word legal is inconsequential. If it distracts you from the important words in my writing, ignore it like it wasn't there.  Then reread everything as though it was never written.  See if the other words make sense.  -- Jayron 32 23:25, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * According to our article Donald Trump (which I assume is being vetted pretty microscopically these days) his eponymous "university" "was notified by New York State authorities that its use of the word 'university' violated state law". So some states, at least, must have laws regulating the use of the term. Deor (talk) 20:45, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * That is interesting. I tracked down the HuffPo piece given as a ref; it says:
 * By letter dated May 27, 2005, the New York State Department of Education (SED) notified Donald Trump individually, Sexton, and Trump University that they were violating the New York Education Law by using the word “university” when it was not actually chartered as one.
 * That, by itself, doesn't prove that New York has a law regulating the use of the word "university"; it just reports that as the interpretation held by the SED. I would be interested to see the text they're relying on, and in particular (in reference to this question) whether there is any distinction with "college".  That is, if he had called it "Trump College", would it have made any difference? --Trovatore (talk) 21:01, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Probably not. says "Education Law §224(1)(a) and 8 NYCRR §3.29: Use of the terms “college” and “university” are generally restricted to institutions chartered by the BOR or the Legislature.  The Commissioner may consent to the use of the terms for for-profit institutions provided certain requirements are met." The cited laws and regulations are  and . Note if you check these, in particular the former, there are some apparent distictions in that it doesn't sound like you can have a university as an educational institution other than those already allowed without an act of the legislature. But you can more easily form a college (or could have a historic one). Interestingly, if Trump had clearly branded and promoted his university as say a get rich quick scheme rather than an educational institution, perhaps he could have called it a university in New York. Nil Einne (talk) 16:52, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for finding that, Nil, that does seem to explain this New York situation pretty well. It's a bit annoying though.  From now on, whenever I point out that there's no legal distinction between "college" and "university" in the United States, I'll have to qualify it, even though the distinction in this New York law is almost certainly irrelevant to any context in which the question is likely to come up. --Trovatore (talk) 19:43, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Within my lifetime, in my original hometown of St. Louis, Missouri, Webster College and Fontbonne College became Webster University and Fontbonne University. I'm having trouble determining exactly what the changes in nomenclature entailed, but presumably some changes in the legal charters were involved. Deor (talk) 22:26, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * A related question is whether New York is the only one. It seems various states do also restrict the formation of colleges or degree granting institutions with various possible exemptions (religious, community colleges, historic)  Diploma mill, Diploma mills in the United States, Unaccredited institutions of higher education. (I did notice from that last article the ref  which suggests other terms including school, library, academy etc are restricted in New York.)  What I'm not sure if any of these makes any distinction between universities and colleges. Kentucky mostly talks about colleges here ], but  does say operating as a university (etc) which probably means there's no distinction. Maine is an interesting one. It does seem they are also quite strict   apparently requiring legislation, but I can't see anything mentioning a distinction between a university and a college, the only mention I saw of university or college is 'institution of higher education to use the term "college" or "university"'. However, considering the people involved in preparing the report includes representatives from other higher educational institutions, it's possible the name could arise. (It's also possible the legislators could reject you if you want to call yourself a university.) Then again, I'm not certain the name is actually controlled by the legislation. Perhaps once established by law, the institution can call themselves whatever they want provided they don't violate other laws e.g. trademarks and can convince a court they are who the legislation applies to.  An additional factor is I'm not sure what the actual controls are. Do all states restrict the term college or university or do some only restrict your ability to advertise as offering degrees? E.g. Oregon requires Oregon Office of Degree Authorization approval to offer degree programs   but I didn't find info on precisely how this is regulated. (Some states possibly don't restrict the institutions themselves but restrict what people can say when applying for jobs etc but I'm not considering those.)  Nil Einne (talk) 16:58, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I sort of had an intuition in advance that there might be some sort of distinction buried in thousands of pages of laws and regulations somewhere. That's why I said "as far as I know" or similar.  But (again, as I might have predicted), the distinctions that have come to light (for example, in the New York law you found) are mostly orthogonal to the distinction between "college" and "university" as typically understood in the United States.  That distinction is a reasonably well-established one, but it's neither a precise distinction nor a "legal" one. --Trovatore (talk) 18:36, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * What Supreme Court decision is the OP talking about? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:33, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Presumably Dartmouth College v. Woodward. ---Sluzzelin talk  18:40, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * That must be it. And the OP's assertion that it declared Dartmouth to be "a college, not a university" is untrue. The court merely ruled that Dartmouth could remain a private institution. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:54, 23 August 2016 (UTC)