Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2016 December 24

= December 24 =

eye of newt hoax?
The article Mustard seed contains an odd claim that it is called "eye of next". Is this true? It is repeated by lots sources, but I haven't seen a reliable one. Not sure if this is botany, linguistics, literature, or anthropology. Thanks for your help! HLHJ (talk) 03:27, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * newt, not next. Akld guy (talk) 08:12, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * This article claims that several of the terms used the famous witch's brew are folk names for various type of herbs. Taken at face value, though, they all describe things that are very small: a newt's eye and a mustard seed are both pretty tiny. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:49, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Romanians in Afghan
Did the Romanian armed forces take part in any offensive (as opposed to defensive or non-combat) operations in the Great War on Terror, particularly in Afghanistan? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 05:08, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Anyone??? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 06:17, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Carbon Caryatid (talk) 16:39, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Hanukkah
Our article, in the infobox, states that this year Hanukkah goes from sunset on 24 December until nightfall on 1 January. Aren't sunset and nightfall the same? † dismas †|(talk) 13:38, 24 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, they are the same. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:27, 24 December 2016 (UTC)


 * As for why different terms are used, repeat after me: it makes it more readable than repeating the same word repeatedly which sound repetitive and is a practice you wouldn't want to repeat repeatedly. StuRat (talk) 14:58, 24 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Not everyone defines nightfall as occurring at sunset (though it probably means the same here) . See Twilight.    D b f i r s   16:04, 24 December 2016 (UTC)


 * This site uses the term "nightfall" for the beginning of Hanukkah. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:08, 24 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Hebrew calendar goes into more detail on the subject. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:11, 24 December 2016 (UTC)


 * That article makes it clear that the two are NOT the same. Sunset is the earliest point that the day can be said to have ended: the moment the sun is below the horizon. Nightfall, with the requirement to be able to see three stars of medium brightness is later, and is the point at which that there can be no doubt that the day has ended. Like many Jewish traditions, this is designed to ensure that no-one starts late or finishes early on an important day of religious observance. By starting at the earlier time, and finishing at the later, it becomes impossible to commit an inadvertent fault. Wymspen (talk) 19:16, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * So how should the article say it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:44, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * He appears to be saying that the article is correct, but that they are not identical as you assumed above, rather nightfall is a slightly later time than sunset. Dragons flight (talk) 20:36, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Exactly - the article actually says "The beginning of each halachic day is based on the local time of sunset. The end of the Shabbat and other Jewish holidays is based on nightfall (Tzeth haKochabim) which occurs some amount of time, typically 42 to 72 minutes, after sunset." Wymspen (talk) 20:48, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, all. † dismas †|(talk) 21:33, 24 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Not so fast. The link I posted earlier, which at least appears to be written by Jews, says the new day begins at nightfall rather than sunset. So which is it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:46, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * This site says "evening", which would correspond to "sunset" rather than "nightfall". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:55, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * We are kinda bad at telling when the sun is below the horizon. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2011/11/20/sunsets-are-quite-interesting/ &#40;&#40;&#40;The Quixotic Potato&#41;&#41;&#41; (talk) 23:08, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The Hebrew term in Jewish law for the time period between sunset and nightfall is bein hashmashot. Probably the closest English equivalent would be "twilight". In other words, we don't know which day the time period belongs to, so we need to be strict about it both ways. This applies by all Jewish festivals, and the Sabbath, not just Hannukah. The Sabbath, for example, begins at Friday sunset (since we need to assume the next day may begin at sunset), and ends Saturday nightfall (since the day may be deemed not to end until nightfall). Definitions of sunset are pretty consistent, but "nightfall" is the subject of disagreement amongst Jewish scholars. One view is that it depends on the emergence of "three stars" - in practice, when the sun is either 4.8, 6.2 or 7.1 degrees longitude below the horizon, according to various opinions about "how small the stars need to be". A more strict view is that of Rabbeinu Tam, who takes a different approach. He rules that nightfall is only 72 minutes after sunset (most hold actual minutes, a minority view his opinion as the longer 16.1 degrees below the horizon), which can be around half an hour later. The relevant Wikipedia article is Zmanim, which should help the OP with the concepts. I just spotted it now, or else I may not have needed to write this long explanation. Eliyohub (talk) 13:27, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks again! It was resolved by my own standards and this later reply has added more knowledge, which I appreciate. --† dismas †|(talk) 04:02, 26 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Though not directly relevant to the question, the uncertainty of the boundaries of night and day is underlined by there being three differingly defined twilights: Civil twilight, Nautical twilight and Astronomical twilight, which begin or end when the Sun is 6, 12 or 18 degrees below the horizon respectively. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.12.85.142 (talk) 13:24, 27 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Actually our article Twilight claims there are five different definitions, notwithstanding that the authoritative reference work Whitaker's Almanac confirms

"The beginning of a particular twilight is found by subtracting the duration from the time of sunrise, while the end is found by adding the duration to the time of sunset."