Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2016 July 28

= July 28 =

Human physical features
Are there any human physical features that could be described as 'Primative', regardless of whether that individual is white, black, indigenous etc racially? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.248.73 (talk) 08:39, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Reduction of the muzzle in the adult (flat-facedness) is a feature all humans share but do not have in common with other (adult) primates. It's better to speak of an autapomorphy then a primitive trait, though, since you are always defining these things relative to a group of interest and its sister groups. In this case, flatfacedness is a neoteny, and again there is a possible confusion engendered by the term "primitive". If all of this is too much jargon: we humans have no muzzles (and do have relatively big noses) and that is one thing that sets us apart from the Great Apes.137.205.183.31 (talk) 10:08, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


 * . --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  10:17, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * You quite frequently see noticeably sloping foreheads amongst the lower classes. 131.251.254.154 (talk) 12:52, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * As with Bungalow Bill, "bullet-headed Saxon mother's son"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:36, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The only way to scientifically get at this is with the definition given at Primitive_(phylogenetics). So for instance, we are all primates, and have all the derived traits that primates do, as well as the basal traits for apes. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:01, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * If we limit this to a consideration of true humans (Homo sapiens sapiens), and exclude the various other species which preceded us, there is a big difficulty in determining what the first, and therefore most "primitive" humans actually looked like. We know that there is now considerable physical diversity within out species. The earliest fossils of the species are very few in number, and being skeletal do not allow us to determine many of the physical features we now recognise as racial variants. Further, the very small number of fossils means that we are not able to say if those first humans all looked much the same: it is possible that there was a similar degree of physical diversity among those first humans as we now observe among the modern population. Wymspen (talk) 16:42, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I took the OP's question as referring to things like people born with tails, which IIRC, happens in about 1/1000 births. μηδείς (talk) 17:49, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Being born with a tail is "primitive", as in an evolutionary throw-back, not only in Homo sapiens but in other great apes. Humans are tailless because we are great apes and great apes are tailless.  Humans are distinguished from other great apes in various ways including larger brains, more flexible hands (even more than apes), and being nearly hairless.  Robert McClenon (talk) 19:48, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * For an example of the correct use of terminology: tails are a primitive trait for primates, in precisely the sense of the article I link above. Taillessness, i.e. the trait of having no tail, is a derived trait of the apes. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:02, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Photo shoot
Hello there,

Is anyone around familiar with photography or photo shoots? I'm currently working on a project and I need information on how a photo shoot is developed. How many people is usually involved (besides the photographer and the model). Does the make-up artist have to be there during the whole photo shoot?

I'd appreciate any comments or links where I can get detailed information. References to Annie Leibovitz's style and gear are welcomed.

Thanks a lot.  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  18:02, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


 * There will be someone doing the lights, which is a skilled, technical, and essential job. The makeup artists will stick around.  There may also be a double, who will stand in for the model, so that the camera and lighting can be set up while the model is getting made up.  There can certainly be more than just one photographer. μηδείς (talk) 19:46, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Sure, it might be a big affair, or it might be just a model and photographer. Hard to say, there's lots of things that might count as a photo shoot. The Magazine cover of a national magazine probably works a little different from e.g. boudoir photography. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:00, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia has an article about the American portrait photographer Annie Leibovitz. It is evident from her work with many celebrities that she invests time developing a close rapport with each one. She has used a polaroid camera to collect initial snapshots and it is clear that more work goes into the final picture concept than would be necessary with regular professional models. Leibovitz's Photo shoots obviously have not followed a set pattern in such projects as photographing a dancer on a gargøyle on a Manhatten skyskraper, or photographing Whoopi Goldberg lying in a bathtub full of milk. This article by Leibovitz tells a little of her motivation. As a general rule, the less planned a professional photograph seems to be, the more planning and preparation has gone into it. I assume a conceptual photographer such as Annie Leibovitz exerts directorial control over anyone needed (or not) at her photo shoots including, it is reported, offending Queen Elizabeth by asking her to remove her tiara. AllBestFaith (talk) 00:23, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


 * It would help if Miss Bono gave us her assignment brief. A photo shoot can range from using natural light without even a reflector nor makeup, to an indoor studio shoot where one needs a dresser (seen those models in mail order catalogues,  wearing off-the-peg evening  gowns that fit so perfectly – look behind and the dresser  has used a lot of safety pins to nip&tuck in order make the gown  look a perfect fit). We need more info from the OP. Sounds like the commissioner really needs to employ a professional for this job if you're worrying about make-up. If (say) the model is a red-head and is to wear a green dress (nice combination) she will know what colour lipsticks to avoid  - don’t need a make up artist for that!  The model's career depends on accomplishing  each assignment well and will point out any faux pas that the photographer may make. For high class photography where a make up artist is needed  to be on hand (and perhaps a stylist and dresser) then the client  doesn’t commission someone that has to ask these questions. Finally, I have never come across a photographer that needs someone to do the lights – in cinematography this may be the norm but not for a photographer.--Aspro (talk) 00:34, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * This video at 1:20 shows an Annie Leibovitz photo shoot in progress involving many models, assistents and lighting equipment (possibly intended to be in the image). AllBestFaith (talk) 14:07, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I take that as a tongue in cheek joke. The lights shown in that video are being used as stage props not set luminairse. Also, to be fair. That Leibovitz shoot could not have cost less than $20,000 (lets keep costs conservatively low; min 15 people attending x $300 (fees) plus construction costs for the set). Miss Bono is most certainly not being asked  to take on that type of assignment. If the brief is to advertises (say) cosmetics, then sure, it will require the manufacturer’s make-up  expert, stylists etc., and the client will insist on these being present  from the outset.  The lighting however, is left to the photographer because that is his (or in Bono's case her) part of the  job. You make it sound as if, all the photographer has to do  is to press the shutter. Go ahead Miss Bono and accept the assignment but insist on clarification (in writing)  of exactly what is expected. Some (too many) clients often expect too much for what they are offering to pay.--Aspro (talk) 12:27, 31 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Okay, I was off for a few days. What I have to do is write about the develpment of a photo shoot for the cover of an international music magazine. I suspect that's a bit different from shooting for a fashion magazine. I'm sorry I wasn't clearer before.  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  13:43, 31 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Ah. Writing about it, is a bit different from shooting. This advice is just of the top of my head. Some magazine have a strict 'style' for how their Covers should look. Music magazines tend to be a bit more avant-garde and permit a lot of flexibility. Look through some past issues ( if you don't have them, the publisher  will). Get a taste for the 'typical' cover style of the magazine .  Then, ask this publisher  ( or rather this publisher's  photo editor) to give his/her OK for you to be in attendance at a shoot.  What you write about will then have an air of authority.  Don't try and generalize about all shoots, as that will end up a very long article and you don't have time for that and the proj may not need that depth of coverage. Also, don't (ever never) let the photo editor decide the shoot for you to attend. The following is gross an exaggeration -to get my point across: The best ones are those where you have to take along (say) a sleeping bag, tampons, anti-snake venom and an elephant gun, because   simple run-of-the-mill shoots don't make for  interesting reading as  'anyone'  could write about those. One of the best way to contact a  photo editor is not by phone but  to present oneself at reception  whilst   wearing a long dress  ( yes really – makes you appear more business like and showing confidence and determination,  is 90% of the game) and ask to speak to him/her. Hope this helps.  @ AllBestFaith. I haven't seen the image of Whoopi Goldberg lying in a bathtub full of milk. Was it past-'er-eyes'd  or just up to her chin? --Aspro (talk) 01:09, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * @ Aspro. Whether the milk should have properly reached the calves is a moot question that can be left to an udder time. The uncowed Whoopi now recommends THC-infused baths for stressful periods. Wikipedia has a short article about Milk bath. AllBestFaith (talk) 16:24, 1 August 2016 (UTC)