Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2016 May 16

= May 16 =

Taxing the post office
Is it normal for a US local government to impose property taxes on USPS-owned post offices? Trying to get a construction year for File:Lacarne post office 43439.jpg, I checked the local GIS website and got the building's records, but while trying to find a construction year (it ended up being in the Improvements tab), I observed that they'd charged the USPS about $74 in taxes last year. Their tax bill (linked from the same page) mentions the $74 special assessment and another $718 in ordinary taxes for last year. Does the post office really pay local property taxes? I assumed that this would fall under McCulloch v. Maryland (the USPS isn't a federal institution per se, but nor was the Second Bank of the US), but the tax bill would seem to reject that idea. The federal government voluntarily pays pittances to counties with large areas of national forest land, since those lands aren't taxed (or at least they did this in the early 1970s, the time that I was researching when I learnt a little about such payments), but this looks like "pay or face sheriff's sale", not "hey we'd appreciate that voluntary pittance, please". Nyttend (talk) 03:22, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * You're right that USPS-owned buildings, as federal property, are not subject to taxes. However, the parcel is in the name of "FDI Postal Properties," and that's not the U.S. Postal Service but rather a private company which now appears to own the building. My guess would be that the post office building went under a sale-leaseback arrangement, and if the government is now leasing the facility from a private company, the private company would be subject to taxes. (BTW, the payment in lieu of taxes program is still in force for federal lands, now called the Secure Rural Schools Act.) NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:55, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * That makes sense; thank you. Your concluding links helped me find the County payments article, which deals directly with the forest lands.  Nyttend (talk) 04:15, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Which big 4 North American sports teams have Euro-style names or logos?
Like how the Atlanta Hawks logo says "ATLANTA HAWKS" / "BASKETBALL CLUB". Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 12:00, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I am uncertain what you mean by "Euro-style" names and logos. Can you elaborate what distinguishes a logo or name as "Euro-style"?  -- Jayron 32 12:23, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, you don't actually need us to solve this problem. Every team's logo is in the infobox on their page.  You can find all the teams listed at each Wikipedia page for the league.  National Hockey League, National Basketball Association, Major League Baseball, and National Football League (if you count all of those as "Big 4".  If you're including soccer, Major League Soccer is the North American Major Soccer League.)  -- Jayron 32 12:27, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, if you want them all on one page, Chris Creamer's sports logos website, http://www.sportslogos.net/, is also a good source. -- Jayron 32 13:14, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I should've thought of Googling. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:34, 16 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm not seeing anything remotely like the Euro symbol in that logo. Can you explain what you mean? 131.251.254.81 (talk) 13:11, 16 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean it resembles "€" (I don't think it does), I meant "club". I wouldn't be surprised if some big 4 teams' long form legal name has club in it but I don't recall seeing it on a logo before. Some of our soccer teams sound European (besides the N. American cities) (i.e. Toronto FC, FC Kansas City, Real Salt Lake and the hybrid Seattle Sounders FC) but the big 4 sports leagues exclude soccer. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:34, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * That's been the case with the baseball teams for a long time, though some might not use "club" anymore. The National League's full name is, or was, the National League of Professional Baseball Clubs. And the teams are often called "clubs". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:54, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The formal name for the Cubs is "Chicago National League Ball Club, Inc.". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:57, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The Twins are the only MLB team with "club" right on the main current logo according to the site Jayron found. It does seem more normal with baseball. I always thought it was a limited usage holdover of the past like how announcers say "he struck out the side" but don't go around always saying side and never saying team like it's England. And baseball loves 1900 retro, lol. "the National League of Professional Base Ball Clubs. Estd. 1876". Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:25, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * That's a logo they use for publications, but they don't wear it on their uniforms. I would have to say offhand that very few, if any, ball clubs have had the words "ball club" on their uniforms. In olden days their "brand" was the city they played for, hence the uniform reflected that. In more recent years, the "brand" is the nickname. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:18, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Prior to the 1920s or so, team nicknames were usually unofficial, and granted by sportswriters, players, coaches, or owners for a variety of reasons, and were fluid and often changed from year to year or even within the season. Boston Red Sox is instructive.  -- Jayron 32 17:42, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * It was the 1930s before most everyone started wearing their team nicknames on their uniforms, and even then it was mostly the home uniforms, with the road uniforms bearing the city name. Branding began early, as with the Athletic Baseball Club of Philadelphia, the Cincinnati Red Stockings, the Detroit Tigers, etc. The usage of these brands accelerated once the teams saw the advantage to it. Consider the Washington Senators. They were officially the Nationals until they put Senators on their uniforms in the 1950s. Prior to that, their logo was a block "W". In the early 1900s, the Chicago Nationals were called the Cubs by some local newspapers and the Colts by other local papers. It was finally settled in 1906 when Cubs was adopted along with an early version of the team logo - a "C" with a bear inside it. The oldest logo in baseball would be the gothic "A" of the Oakland Athletics, which is around 150 years old. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:30, 16 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The Montreal Canadiens logo is a C within a C, and an H inside. It stands for "Club de Hockey Canadien". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:33, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * That's not a C within a C; it's one C with a decorative outline around it. I think it represents both of the C's in the full name. --69.159.60.83 (talk) 05:41, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Either way, it implies "club", as noted in the history. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:24, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Agreed. --69.159.60.83 (talk) 08:33, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The New York Rangers's logo could be described as European-style, as it's in the form of a shield, like that of many European sports clubs. --Xuxl (talk) 20:39, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The NHL and the NFL also use shields as their league logos. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:42, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

I am still confused as to what a Euro-style logo is. It sounds as if it's one with "club" in the logo but after studying the logos of some of the biggest European soccer clubs (Ajax, Borussia Dortmund, Juventus, Lazio, AC Milan, Olympique de Marseille, Manchester United, Newcastle United, Paris SG, UC Sampdoria, Tottenham Hotspur) that doesn't appear to be the style at all. The first team I found with "club" in the logo was Liverpool. Furthermore, in England, they are often referred to as teams, by commentators and fans alike. One would never say, "What club do you support?" Can anyone clarify? I am dying to know.--Ykraps (talk) 16:15, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * European style = something like "Golden State Basketball Club" instead of Golden State Warriors, a fancy shield, year of establishment, stars for how many "cups" you've won, or anything like FC, F.C., CC, HC, RFC, BC (i.e. Indiana BC instead of Indiana Pacers) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:30, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't follow soccer enough to know what the question intends. But as for "club" vs. "team", they are often used as synonyms, but they aren't exactly the same. Generally speaking, the "team" is the players, the "club" is the entire organization. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:23, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think I would broadly agree with those definitions. I was trying to understand Sagittarian Milky Way's earlier comment, "...but don't go around always saying side and never saying team like it's England". Perhaps someone can give me an example of an American style logo, then?--Ykraps (talk) 18:10, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * When I saw English Premier League soccer once the sportscasters seemed to replace every instance of "team(s)" with "side(s)". They said side so much in the hour I watched. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:30, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * AFAICT, perusing Creamer's Sports Logo site, noted above, is that many European sports teams use "Shield" style logos which resemble a coat of arms, where as American teams tend to use stylized or cartoon versions of their mascot or nickname. Compare, for example File:Liverpool FC.svg or File:FC Barcelona (crest).svg with File:Boston Celtics.svg or File:Atlanta Falcons logo.svg.  -- Jayron 32 18:16, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * There are plenty of Euro soccer teams that use stylised logos, such as: Tottenham Hotspur FC, Nottingham Forest FC and Doncaster Rovers FC to name but a few. Logos like that were far more prevalent in the past, with lots of teams changing to a shield or circular shape during the 60s and 70s when sew-on patches became popular. Obviously it's easier to produce a patch in these shapes so perhaps the Atlanta Falcons are thinking along the same lines.
 * Actually, all of those USED to have a shield- or crest- style logo in the past; it looks like the use of styled mascot-type logos is more recent. See File:Tottenham Hotspur old logo.png or Doncaster_Rovers_F.C..  Even the modern Doncaster logo incorporates the shield design element.  -- Jayron 32 19:03, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Hardly recent. Here's a picture of Jimmy Greaves wearing a stylized mascot Tottenham shirt and he ceased to play for the club in 1970.[] I picked modern logos because we were discussing a supposedly modern trend but as I said, these style of logos were more prevalent in the past. See Chelsea's 1970 season shirt[], Arsenal's 1971 shirt[], Leeds United's in 1972 [], Liverpool in 1973[],Derby County in 1972 [] and West Brom in 1968 []--Ykraps (talk) 12:28, 18 May 2016 (UTC)