Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2017 January 6

= January 6 =

Housing Mystery
I am very confused about a group of houses near me.

Basically, one day, while walking back home from somewhere I don't remember, I noticed new houses getting built in Holmhead. There addresses are 52, 54 and 56 Holmhead Road to the best of my knowledge. They are referred to as plots 85, 84 and 83 respectively in planning documents I have seen.

Occasionally, I would walk down to these houses to get an update of how finished they were. I also considered the possibility of owning and living in one when I was older and richer.

What confused me was what happened recently, after the exterior work was complete and when the interior work was in very advanced stages, number 56 (plot 83), displayed some evidence of habitation.

Even though the house was minimally furnished, I saw people who were not workers entering. One of them was only a young child. Over the next few days after this, I saw more evidence of habitation in the form of an unusual car in the driveway.

Basically I want to know, how in the name of goodness did they buy the house when there were no internet listings or information in estate agents offices across Cumnock. There was never even a for sale sign next to the house in question. How was this even possible?

Bearing in mind that the main developer doesn't even have a website...

Please help me. This issue has been driving me loopy for the last month!

Pablothepenguin (talk) 18:59, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The surest way to find out is to ask them. Otherwise, there's always the chance these new homes are being built because the upcoming residents are having them built. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:03, 6 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Not possible... They don't have a website and I don't know any other details. Also, I checked planning documents and the development was initiated by a developer, and no "upcoming residents" were declared in the document. Also, I'm talking about three houses, how do you find that many "upcoming residents" anyway? Pablothepenguin (talk) 19:06, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * When I say "Ask them" I mean ask the people you're seeing there as you walk by. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:10, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Possibly, but I never have seen them again, just their car. Also, I need this info as I want to buy a house soon. Pablothepenguin (talk) 19:18, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * No construction workers either? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:20, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I've seen plenty of them... but, they're just basic workers and wouldn't know anything about formal ownership or estate agency. (I'm Scottish, this practice is also know to Americans as "Realty") Pablothepenguin (talk) 19:28, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * They should know who their employer is. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:42, 6 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Ask a local estate agent. Or put a note through the door.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:41, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I might consider the note through the door trick. Pablothepenguin (talk) 20:14, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It all depends on how badly you want to find out the answer. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:02, 6 January 2017 (UTC)


 * The planning documents (which the council linked to when someone I suspect to be you made the FOI request) gives the name of the developer as Charlesfort Developments Ltd - and they have a website. It is, of course, possible that they built these particular homes on behalf of someone else, possibly the landowner, and that they may never have been intended for the open market. Wymspen (talk) 22:46, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * That's a better way of saying what I was trying to say. If the homes were essentially sold before they were built, there would be no reason to list them. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:57, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've checked the website and also found a Facebook page. It seems that some "clients" bought the house before it was built. What I don't understand is, how could they do this when the houses were never listed? How on earth do I pull off the same trick? Also, by the grace of God, I know that the "clients" won't own the house(s) for evermore. Thus, I shall pounce when the SOBs have moved out. I am confident that that will work. Pablothepenguin (talk) 23:15, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * You seem to be under the impression that builders have to build a house and then go looking for a buyer. That's not always true. Many people approach builders and pay them to build a house for them. That is the way it works here in the US. Going by your wording, I'm assuming you're in the UK and I would also assume that it works much the same way there. † dismas †|(talk) 23:22, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Bingo. Now, if the OP is still dying of curiosity about who had the houses built, maybe he could check for property transactions for those lots. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:30, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * You can always write to Mr King and ask him.[]--Ykraps (talk) 23:36, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * ... or ring Steven Denham of Denham/Benn Ltd who submitted an application on behalf of Charlesfort Properties Ltd whose address here in Robbiesland Drive is just behind the houses you are interested in.    D b f i r s   00:21, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I also note that the original poster seems to assume that if a house is for sale then this must be done via the Internet. Not necessarily true! --69.159.60.210 (talk) 00:54, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * The fact that there are 3 such houses makes it less likely that the people who intend to live there all hired a builder. I suppose it could be one rich guy who wants to provide homes for his friends and/or relatives, but it seems more likely that the builder sold the homes before construction, and that they are therefore no longer listed.  Another possibility is that people you saw are renting, and these houses are being built as rental properties, and therefore not listed as for sale, only for rent. StuRat (talk) 05:49, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I'd like to know where the OP gets off calling the occupants "SOBs" just because he doesn't seem to approve of how they got the houses - even though he doesn't actually know how they got the houses. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:32, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * It's meant to be funny, calling them that because they got the jump on him. You better never go to Australia, where "bastard" seems to be a term of affection. StuRat (talk) 06:52, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Rogereeny. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:57, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * It's definitely possible the builder presold the homes or sold the homes during construction. But it's also possible it wasn't the builder. For example, perhaps someone bought the land and subdivided it into 3 lots (the plot whatever may suggest this isn't the case but I don't know much about the meaning of these in the OP's locale), deciding to keep 1 for themselves and sell the other two houses. It also doesn't have to be one person owning the land. It's possible 3 friends or relatives bought the land separately wanting to live together. Nil Einne (talk) 06:58, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Off-plan property is the technical term for this practice, which (as the OP has observed) is very common in the UK. Tevildo (talk) 09:36, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * BTW, reading the Facebook page re-affirms one thing the OP said, it seems clear at least one of the homes was owned before development begun since it mentions working with the clients during the design phase. Whether the home was sold before construction, or the client bought the land and hired the builder I don't know. Possibly the other documents mentioned above are enough to work it out. Incidentally, may I suggest that if someone doen't know at least some of the ways a home could be owned without ever having been listed online, they're not yet ready to own property? Nil Einne (talk) 15:21, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * It is quite possible that the builders/developers bought a plot of land, got planning permission to build the houses, then worked with one of their clients to create the houses. Anyway, if the OP had been in England or Wales, I would have referred him to the Land Registry: where for a search fee you can find out who does own those houses. (The fee was £12 last I looked) It may be worth the OP investigating whether there is a similar Government body for Scotland. --TammyMoet (talk) 16:59, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I want to clarify a few things here:

1. The original plan was filed by David King and Son, and yet, Charlesfort suddenly gained the development.

2. I already said that I did check the estate agents shops in Cumnock.

3. I couldn't find any listing when the houses will still just foundations.

4. Only one house is complete, another is close and the third has barely begun. I can't find a listing for the third house either!

I am still very confused...Pablothepenguin (talk) 17:40, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Why would there be any listing if the houses were pre-sold? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:47, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * David King & Son of 28 Oak Bank Drive (just a street away) are the builders. The owner of the land is probably Colin James McCall, director of Charlesfort Developments Ltd (Company number SC510847 registered at Companies House) who lives behind the new properties at 27 Robbiesland Drive (please confirm whether he or his company is the title holder, as suggested above if you don't mind paying the charge).  This is all public information, and there is another director, David Weir, who lives nearby. Why not call and ask as you walk past?  Apologies to the named individuals for publishing their addresses here, but the information is freely available elsewhere, and the OP seems unable to find the information himself.  Rather strangely, the planning documents seem to have become unavailable online.   D b f i r s   19:40, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * @Baseball Bugs: I was checking for listings before they were "presold". Pablothepenguin (talk) 22:02, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly confused now. Above said you only became interested in these properties after you saw them being built. Considering the only one we know is sold was sold before it was built, how did you check the listings before it was "presold"? Do you mean you were regularly checking for listings generally beforne it was likely to have been presold? (I guess 6 months or more before construction including of foundations started.) If so, why are you so sure you would have noticed these even if they were listed when you weren't particularly looking out for them? I mean I do't know you can even be sure you would have noticed them even when you were looking out for them. There is the caveat I don't really know how many listings there are in your area, Maybe there are so few it's likely you would have noticed them. If you mean after you saw the buildings being constructed you looked at old listings this is somewhat different, but still how far back did you go? Going through 6 months or more of listings in one or a few sittings seems a bit extreme so even if you did do this, I wouldn't be that surprised if you just missed it. If you've only looked at online listings, repeating what was said above, not all properties are going to be listed online (actually not all are going to be listed point blank) and if you are looking at historic listings online, depending on the site these can simply disappear. Nil Einne (talk) 12:33, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

You have put a lot of people to a lot of trouble, just KNOCK ON THEIR DOOR AND ASK !!Artjo (talk) 12:22, 8 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Oh, it's been quite interesting to see what can be discovered, including some details that perhaps the OP might have preferred to keep private (I won't disclose them here). I can understand why D P is reluctant to call at any of the addresses, including those of the builder and of the suspected owner of the original plots, but if the houses were never intended for public sale then they will never have been advertised, and there is only one other way that I can think of to find out who is living there, and that is to consult the local electoral roll.    D b f i r s   12:42, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I have social anxiety. Also, I have looked at the estate agent's windows several times since well before the third house was even a foundation. The third house is six months behind the construction of the first house, with the second house very close but slightly behind the first one. Even today, it is still just a foundation. At last check, floorboards were just going in with foam insulation also being prepared alongside. This, at a time when house #1 is finished and the second house having final interior work done. I also don't have much money and so the Scottish archives and the electoral roll can't be used by me at the moment. And so, I checked for listings for the third house, the foundation, since last June, and did not find anything, thus the houses were never "presold". So what else could be going on? Pablothepenguin (talk) 17:31, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Again, why do you think these houses would necessarily be "listed"? There could have been a prior agreement with the property owner and whoever's going to be living in them. For all we know, they could be relatives of the property owner. Also, maybe you need to weigh your social anxiety against how badly you want to know the answer. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:43, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Well we don't know much about the second or third house. But we do know the owners were involved in the design phase of the first house, which likely means it was owned by them before construction started. Whether this is because it was "presold" (whatever you mean like this) or they always owned the land or whatever, we don't know but that's mostly beside the points many have been making. Nil Einne (talk) 13:14, 9 January 2017 (UTC)


 * User:Artjo, nobody here has been put to any trouble at all. Nobody is ever forced to be involved in the answering of any question whatsoever.  It's all completely voluntary.  Whatever "trouble" anyone has gone to is entirely their own choice.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:16, 8 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I plan to telephone the head of Charlesfort who lives at 27 Robbiesland, Colin James McCall, this Tuesday. I will post my findings here... Pablothepenguin (talk) 20:20, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm pleased to hear that you found my research useful, and I'd be interested to hear what response you get. Remember to ask politely, and don't be upset if he tells you that the houses are no concern of yours.    D b f i r s   21:04, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think he'll say that. The phone call was pre-arranged by email, because I used the Charlesfort general enquiries email address. Also, he wouldn't drive away business like then when he could perceive my interest as potentially resulting in a new customer! Pablothepenguin (talk) 22:57, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh good. Maybe some of the development might be put on the open market at some point.  I was concerned that perhaps it was an entirely private development.    D b f i r s   00:25, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The fact that this application for a single garage was stillin the name of neighbour Charlesfort possibly suggests that the finished house has not actually been sold?   D b f i r s   19:01, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
 * And, back top priorities, we need to know from The OP when he expects to be 'older and richer'...? ;)  O Fortuna!  ...Imperatrix mundi.  03:40, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Phone call to Charlesfort
I have now telephoned Charlesfort. Their director David Weir was the guy who answered me. He had the following things to say:
 * 1) Charlesfort apparently don't have good marketing skills, and sold the houses by word of mouth. By that, I mean, curious people have asked them about the houses and transactions were then made.
 * 2) For me to do the same, would require me to constantly check for planning applications and listings on the Charlesfort website constantly.
 * 3) Charlesfort bought the land, and therefore inherited the plan, off of David King & Son.
 * 4) There is a lot of abandoned land next to the new houses and Charlesfort are apparently interested in developing more of this land, hence I shall keep looking and attempt to own one of Charlesfort's houses. I am currently a student in his gap year and will most likely apply for a council tenement later this year. It might take around two years to gain employment and acquire enough money to move to a private residence. Charlesfort, among older houses in Cumnock, will be considered for this.
 * 5) Finally, David said that he would like to meet me at the new houses, which are only a five minute walk from were I live, and further explain the above points. He also was interested in discussing future housing developments and was also looking to give me more warning when new houses were to be built by Charlesfort. He even said he would show me around the site and tell me a bit more about it. Pablothepenguin (talk) 20:24, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Also, why does Fortuna Imperatriz Mundil want to know my financial status? I have pretty much given it away in the fourth item in this list for him. Pablothepenguin (talk) 20:24, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
 * As you've now seen, the best way to find out something is to go right to the source and ask the horse. As for your financial status, you already did make it pretty clear that you can't afford to buy a house at this point. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:42, 11 January 2017 (UTC)