Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2017 March 27

= March 27 =

New York subway
How long is the longest transfer passageway in the New York subway? Would that be the passageway between the Times Square station complex and the Port Authority Bus Terminal station, or between the Bryant Park station and the 5th Avenue station on the Flushing line, or would that be some other passageway (if so, which one)? Also, about how long on average is a typical passageway between stations? And last but not least, a related question: What's the largest vertical separation (in flights of stairs) between stations in a multilevel station complex in the New York subway, and which complex would that be? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:54FD:1B3C:D13B:29E6 (talk) 07:45, 27 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't know what's longest but Penn Station must be longer. The other two start west of 7th/5th Avenue but the Penn Station transfer is the full distance between the avenues. The megacomplex between Fulton Street and the World Trade Center area's even longer and still growing. Maybe not what you wanted but you can get in the Grand Central–42nd Street (New York City Subway) station at 3rd Avenue walk on the 7 train platform, go up to the 456 train area between Lexington and Park Avenue, and go through the transfer tunnel to the S train and get out at I think Madison Avenue. That's longer than Penn Station. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 12:46, 27 March 2017 (UTC)


 * There is no swipeless transfer between different railways at Penn Station; you have to leave system at the A line to get to the 1 line on the next avenue over, and even if there were a tunnel it would be a damn lot directer than some of the transfers at Union Square or 42nd Street. It should be easy enough to google this to get an answer, but my travels have been along a limited number of lines. μηδείς (talk) 16:22, 27 March 2017 (UTC)


 * You're right, now I remember you can only use the Penn Station transfer for free if you have an unlimited Metrocard. 14th Street between 7th and 6th is a real example of a Penn Station-style long block transfer but Fulton Center's probably longer. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:01, 27 March 2017 (UTC)


 * In London there is a long passageway between Bank and Embankment Stations.  To transfer between Island Gardens and Cutty Sark you walk under the river Thames.   Above ground there is a long covered walkway between Hackney Central and Hackney Downs. 86.169.56.176 (talk) 16:42, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
 * lol 86.169.56.176, you're seventeen years out of date. The Island Gardens line was extended to Lewisham in 1999. &mdash;  O Fortuna!   Imperatrix mundi.  04:05, 28 March 2017 (UTC
 * Monument, not Embankment. And, well, the question was about New York. --76.71.6.254 (talk) 20:22, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Right -- I'm tentatively planning for the Subway Challenge (not the Tube Challenge), and I want to know how much time would it realistically take to transfer between different lines. 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 00:31, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Ride in the conductor's car or a not nearly empty car in bad neighborhoods. The first stop after a river tunnel is often very deep (like 100 foot escalators), the deepest train in the Times Square and Grand Central complexes is the 7, do NOT transfer during 9 to 5s' commutes if you want quick, maybe don't get on a Manhattan bound train scheduled to stop in Manhattan before 9 or the Financial District before markets open at 9:30 (the infrequent service of weekends and holidays probably makes them slower than weekdays. I don't know if Black Friday has a weekday schedule and fewer people to make boarding take forever, maybe try that), plan late night transfers wisely because it's 20 minutes between trains, if your rules allow express note that some expresses only exist in rush hour or at least not late night. You might not want to take the Manhattan Bridge or the N/Q to Brooklyn more than once - it's slow like hell (to prevent wear and tear on the bridge), the fastest train in the system is the 60th Street Tunnel probably westbound from Queensboro Plaza because it's a mostly straight, steep (by train standards) 50 meter drop. But not when trains are too close together and drivers bleed off some speed every time they see a mildly advisory light even though they have plenty of time to stop before running a red light automatically brakes the train and it's designed to be impossible for a rear end to happen no matter how fast it's going, how defective the throttle dead man's switch is and how close to the near end of the signal block the next train is when a red light is run. If you want to know which transfers are short and which are long I can tell you (not every last one, I haven't been everywhere but I did use my 3rd free ride/day on the student free Metrocard to see lots of parts of the subway I never would've otherwise). Tell me what time you got if you try it. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:28, 28 March 2017 (UTC)


 * The "conductor's car" is ambiguous. It may mean the first or the middle car, since in many trains the driver's and conductor's job has been consolidated.  The middle car is considered the safe car, usually has the conductor, and is also the most crowded. (The middle car is usually by the turnstiles when the train stops, but not at all locations) It's a horrible idea to ride there in a race unless you are a vulnerable person.  Ride in the last car, which will have the least number of riders.  Unless you look like you expect to be mugged.  On the 6 line I used to see Macho Camacho shadow boxing all the time, and was never molested.  I can give a little help regarding trips from the South and West Bronx, and Manhattan.  Is there a print of the route? μηδείς (talk) 03:54, 28 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Right, if a car's the slightest bit crowded then don't stay there. Unless the shortest transfer's from that car (prewalking) then see how crowded adjacent cars are and guess what's quicker. Be the first to stand up so you're not behind several people at the door, know which side the doors will open, I know exactly which side of which door of which car is quickest at stations I use enough (i.e. second-to-last car, right rear door, front half, go diagonally forward 2 yards), knowing these might help. Despite not being allowed, walking between cars is almost 100% guaranteed to not result in a ticket (I've done it about 10000 times and been warned twice and never ticketed, once cause I sat on the end seat quick upon realizing this is likely the first and last seat I'll ever see and the cop didn't know I was too nearsighted to see him, not evading a warrant) except some police are still stupidly legalistic or racist so I probably had it easy. The L train and any others with communication based train control has no driver so the front will have no employee I think. CBTC is being phased in very slowly. I've heard CBTC will not allow trains to go through the 60th Street Tunnel as fast but allow trains to come more than once every 2 minutes in rush hour at the same speed where it's not a long fast downhill section. Sometimes there's a car or part of a car with an unusual shortage of people. This is of course because of something extremely stinky like a homeless person or piece of fish on the floor (I saw it). I do not know how bad the smell is if you hold your nose and breathe through your mouth. On that note, heat and long periods thereof makes trains smell like body odor. High heat also makes the air density lower. If that reduces air resistance enough to make a difference or if they are bound to slow down a bit if they're ahead of schedule I don't know. If the first go on the first heat wave of the year for that extra edge. The schedules probably don't take air density into account. Shuttles like the S, Rockaway trains (sometimes) and the M during track work are so short there's probably only a driver. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:04, 28 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I am not personally worried about safety (despite being a white guy and a proud Deplorable as well) -- I have a black belt in karate, and besides, my route will take me through the really dangerous parts of town in the morning and mid-afternoon, whereas the late-night hours will be spent in the relative safety of midtown Manhattan and Queensboro. As for the scheduling issues, I'll be spending most of the morning rush hour on the northbound A train (I expect to reach the end of the line in Inwood about 8:30 AM and transfer there to the southbound A train, and then to the southbound D train at 145th Street, after which I plan to stay on board until 36th Street in Brooklyn), whereas most of the evening rush hour will be spent riding the various IRT lines in the Bronx.  As for Times Square, this is where I plan to transfer from the E train to the 7 train -- which I plan to do late at night (20-minute intervals!), and which I will only have about 3 minutes to do, which is why I'm asking about how long the passageway is and how many flights of stairs there are at the eastern end.  (This, however, is contingent on me catching the eastbound R train from either 57th Street or Lexington Avenue to Roosevelt Avenue before that route shuts down for the night -- if not, then I'll have to take the alternate route, which I don't remember off the top of my head and which probably will not allow me to beat the current record of 24 hours and 2 minutes.)  The other two complexes I'm concerned about are Bryant Park (long passageway) and Court Square (lots of stairs).  Oh, and I plan to do all this on a weekday (to take maximum advantage of the expresses). 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 05:36, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, I've done some thinking about walking between cars, and I think I probably won't do that -- not because it's forbidden, but because it's slightly risky to do it while holding a clipboard in your hand, especially when going between older cars like R46s. (By "risky" I mean not just the slight risk of falling between the cars to my death, but also the risk of dropping the clipboard between the cars, in which case all my efforts would be in vain because I would have no record left of my trips, and so no proof that I've actually made the journey.) 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 07:46, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * 3 minutes? RUN! What if your train leaves sightly early? How long depends on uptown E or downtown E? About 1 flight of stairs up at Times Square ACE and 1 flight down at Times Square 7. How many minutes for Bryant Park? Which Court Square to which Court Square? One is much longer. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:43, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Southbound E to westbound 7 -- and it's a big relief that there's only 1 flight of stairs at each end :-) If the 7 train leaves early (or the E train arrives late), though, I'm f**ked -- then I'll have to wait for 20 minutes or so for the next train.  For Bryant Park, I don't have a precise time, but it will also be about 2-3 minutes to get from the eastbound 7 to the northbound F; as for Court Square, I'll have to get from the westbound 7 to the southbound G (and I don't remember exactly, but that, too, might be a 2-minute connection). 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 08:15, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Run anyway. There's also an uphill slope at one end and a downhill one at the other. Only like 2 yards elevation rise. Bryant Park: Also run. 120 seconds seems doable but run like it's the 150 meter dash. Court Square: Run! It's not the 7 to the EM, good. There is at least 1 flight of stairs down, then 2 flights of escalator down, then zero or one of the two consecutive airport-style moving walkways (definitely won't be needing the second one), then another flight of stairs down. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:56, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Wow, that's a lot of stairs at Court Square! I'll take your advice -- at these 3 stations, I'll run as if all of Isis was chasing after me with AK-47s! 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 07:39, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I can't be sure if there's no mezzanine at G Court Square actually. I've taken the G at this stop almost never. If there's a mezzanine it'd be 5 flights of descending. There's definitely a 90 degree turn.


 * Do you realize how much climbing there is from the E/F/M/R to the 7? It's one flight up, then a long escalator up (I don't know 10 vertical yards?), then another flight of stairs up. Trivia: The E's the most popular train for the down on their luck to sleep in because it's one of the few that only stops underground so cold air doesn't enter and has bench seats instead of anti-sleeping buckets like the R. It's also one of the most popular trains for this. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 08:33, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Except that I don't intend to transfer between the 7 and any of the above trains at either Court Square, Queens Plaza (which would violate the rules anyway, not being a free transfer) or Roosevelt Avenue -- for this part of the route I plan to ride the R to Roosevelt Avenue (if I can catch it before this route shuts down for the night, which I think I probably can), then cross to the other platform and ride the E back to 42nd Street, run like hell to catch the 7 to Hudson Yards, reverse direction back to 5th Avenue/Bryant Park, sprint again to catch the F, ride that to the end of the line in Jamaica (probably not such a good place to go late at night, but it could be worse -- a previous route I had planned actually placed me at New Lots Avenue at midnight, which is definitely not a good place to be at that hour -- this one moves that part of the journey to the mid-afternoon), reverse direction back to Union Turnpike, cross to the other platform and change to the E to Parsons/Archer, slide down the escalator like a sailor running to his battle station to hopefully catch the J, ride that to Myrtle Avenue (probably in the conductor's car, just in case -- it goes through some pretty rough neighborhoods especially between Elderts Lane and Broadway Junction, and it will still be late at night), take the M to Met Avenue and back to Myrtle Avenue, transfer back to the J and ride that all the way to Broad Street, catch my breath and reverse direction back to Chambers Street (15-minute layover at Broad Street -- if there's a public restroom at that station, this will be the time to use it), hop over to the 4 and ride it to Grand Central, transfer to the eastbound 7, ride that to Flushing (and watch the sunrise from the trestle), reverse direction back to Court Square and slither down the stairs again to catch the G. 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 11:40, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
 * 179th Street and Hillside Avenue is not "hood". It's just Bangladeshi people not gangbangers. Donald Trump used to live a few blocks from there. The interior's never been spruced up since the bad old days of the 80s so it looks worse than it is. It's very unlikely there's a public bathroom at Broad Street. And if there is it's probably closed early morning. The handrails of subway escalators are high-friction (rubber) and there are metal things specifically designed to prevent people from going down the space between escalators like a slide. BTW, if the doors close in front of someone's face at their last close transfer what's to prevent someone from claiming they ran 1% faster, got on and broke the world record? Wouldn't you or Guinness need video evidence? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:30, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks! And Parsons/Archer is also in a safe neighborhood, right?  Because some parts of Jamaica are safe and some are not -- and I've only been in that part of town once, so I don't know which is which.  (When I rode the LIRR from Sutphin/Archer for the airshow at Jones Beach, the area around the station did look very run-down, but that alone doesn't really prove anything.)  As for sliding down the stairs, I have a special technique (maybe I should call it "levitating" or something like that), where I hold the handrail(s) with my hand(s) and put most of my body weight on them, whereas my feet are just barely in contact with the steps for propulsion and control (kind of like rappelling down the stairs, with the handrail in place of the rope) -- this allows me to descend at very high speed while still maintaining control.  (Here's what it looks like, more or less: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRXcq140MAA (at 0:11). 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 02:57, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Parsons/Archer is significantly worse than 179th/Hillside but better than the bad parts of Manhattan, Brooklyn or the Bronx. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:04, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * So, I take that it's still relatively safe -- thanks! (Not that it's a big concern for me, because as I already said, I'll be spending just enough time at the station to hop out of the E, sprint down the escalator and (hopefully) leap headlong into the J before it leaves -- only if I miss the J does this become an issue.)  As for the really dangerous parts of the city, I already know most of these -- the Harlem east of 8th Avenue (west of 8th Avenue it improved considerably in recent years), pretty much all of Brooklyn east of Washington Avenue/Flatbush Avenue all the way up to the Queens county line, and most of the Bronx south of the Cross-Bronx Expressway. 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 10:44, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Is there no disability legislation in America?  Do stations not provide step-free access?   As for transit under  the river Thames you may sometimes have to use the Greenwich foot tunnel, for example if you have your cycle with you during the rush hour.   I'm not sure exactly how the restriction on the Docklands Light Railway works - if you board off - peak but reach Island Gardens (southbound) or Cutty Sark (northbound) at the start of the rush  hour do you have to detrain and go through the tunnel? 81.151.128.189 (talk) 11:13, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Stations have elevators, they move extremely slowly, and are only worth the bother if you are disabled or carrying a heavy load. μηδείς (talk) 15:36, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Another thing about NYC subway elevators is that the floor's grimy, there's sometimes decaying dried urine in a corner, they don't always work and they're small. And they were added to a c. 100 year old station as an afterthought to make a fraction of the stations wheelchair-accessible so it might take several elevators in a row to get to where you need to go. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:56, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Right, I don't intend to use the elevators because I can't afford to waste time waiting for them -- my issue with stairs is not the stairs per se (I'm completely able-bodied, so I have no problem with them), but the fact that it takes time to sprint up or down multiple flights of stairs, which could be a problem if I only have 2-3 minutes to transfer from one train to the next. (As for all the dirt, it comes with the territory -- in fact, if you can't just ignore it, you probably shouldn't be riding the subway at all, because it's by far the dirtiest public transit system in the civilized world, and might even be dirtier than some of the ones in uncivilized nations.) 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 23:25, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Dirt is not the important thing. Elevators are cleaned far less than trains and platforms (never?) so if there's piss it ferments in the infrequently ventilated space. (making the elevator stop working after rusting through the floor at worst) Anyway, this thread is quite a tangent. [[User:Sagittarian Milky Way|Sagittarian Milky Way] (talk) 02:30, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Indeed it is -- and I also wonder how come people keep talking about London when the question was about New York? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 03:44, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * It was started by a subtle troll this desk has. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:32, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The river Thames? The Dockland Light Railway? You must have meant the East River and the Roosevelt Island Tramway (which I do not plan to use because it's not part of the challenge and because that part of the route is completely covered by the F train), respectively! 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 12:17, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Our equivalent of the Roosevelt Island Tramway would be this.  In this country a tramway is like a railway line running down a street. 81.151.128.189 (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * When you take the A Train uptown in the morning it will be almost empty, since people live in Inwood and work downtown. When you get to the last stop at 207th street, the next downtown train will probably already be in the station, across the platform.  There are lighted signs hung from the ceiling with arrows pointing to  downtown train.  (On rare occasions, the train you rode in uptown will reverse and go downtown.  There is usually an announcement by loudspeaker.)
 * Ride in the second or third car from the front on your way uptown, which will let you cross directly to the back end of the downtown train. The downtown train is extremely slow during morning rush hours, and gets packed very quickly.  The main entrance to that station is at the south end, not the middle, so avoid the back of the train while headed uptown.
 * Dyckman Avenus (200th street) is the second to last stop uptowm, so you can get up and stand at the door when it pulls out of the station, but you won't know if the doors will open on the right or the left until you actually start pulling into the last stop; either side is possible. I've never transferred to the D, so no advice there. μηδείς (talk) 15:36, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The London comparison led to a helpful discussion about elevators.  The following comment might similarly bear fruit:

The transfer of the suburban rail services to London Overground has generally been a good thing, but they could have provided step - free access better. At many stations there is a zig - zag ramp the length of the station with many levels. By the time you have reached the top of the ramp you have missed your train. They could easily have provided a flight of steps at the station entrance giving direct access to the platform. At Caledonian Road & Barnsbury railway station there's no ramp. Instead the platforms are fenced off at the station entrance. You have to walk the entire length of the station alongside the fence then cross a footbridge to access the platforms, by which time you have again missed your train. Do American railways have this problem?81.151.128.189 (talk) 09:47, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Looking at that picture of Woodside station in Queens, do trains in the U S drive on the left or the right? What about Canada? As for relieving oneself on them, last week I saw a woman doing this, not on a train but in the street outside Leyton station. Why does the article say it is "at the end of Leyton High Road?" It's not. It's in the middle. 81.129.14.0 (talk) 09:39, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Here in the USA, trains usually drive on the right (almost always, in the case of the New York subway), but this varies by railroad -- there are a few lines where trains run on the left. As for your other questions, I have no clue. 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 09:59, 1 April 2017 (UTC)