Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2017 November 15

= November 15 =

Dieselization
Which railroads in the USA were both early adopters of diesel traction and were late to completely phase out steam (i.e. had steam and diesel traction coexisting for an extended period)? Is it correct that the Burlington line was one of these? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:0:0:0:EA04 (talk) 05:49, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I can't answer your first question, but your second one, referring I take it to the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad, can be partly answered by our article on it, which says that the Burlington had its first diesel engine, the Pioneer Zephyr, in 1934. The reference it cites calls this "the world's first diesel-powered stainless steel streamlined train". At Steam locomotive, we have a claim that "diesel locomotives began to appear in mainline service in the United States in the mid-1930s", which seems to confirm that the Burlington was quick off the mark.  It also says that "1960 is normally considered the final year of regular Class 1 main line standard gauge steam operation in the United States".  Since the Burlington's last steam train ran on 28 September 1959 that also makes it fairly late in dropping steam. --Antiquary (talk) 11:10, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * "Q" subsidiary Colorado and Southern ran steam at least until 1962. The Burlington itself kept steam for specials for a number of years, and during the Mississippi flood of 1965 used a steam locomotive to pull Zephyrs through a flooded yard along the river (the firebox of a steamer was higher than the traction motors on a diesel-electric).  Kablammo (talk) 23:18, 18 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Re "the world's first diesel-powered stainless steel streamlined train": don't read more in that than it says. Everybody was streamlining in those days, even if only for the modern looks, and other diesel-powered streamlined steel trains had been build before, like the German DRG Class SVT 877 (1933) or the Dutch nl:Mat '34 (1934), but these were made of regular steel, not stainless steel. Stainless steel saved some weight and gave a shiny look, but never became really popular for building trains.
 * Diesel traction was generally introduced (in Europe at least, I'm less familiar with America) in the form of diesel shunters/switchers in the 1920s. You'll have to dig quite deeply into American railroad history to find out when different companies introduced their first diesel switchers, as they didn't get anywhere near the same publicity as the streamlined passenger expresses. PiusImpavidus (talk) 11:32, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Diesel traction was later than this. It really began in the 1930s, as the high-speed diesel engine only appeared around 1930. The engines before this had been too heavy, bulky and low-powered to be much use. Many had been petrol, rather than diesel. The first to appear were mostly railcars, as their light, short trains were more viable for diesel haulage and also benefited more from the "turn on and go" advantages of diesel over steam. Shunting / switching locos appeared soon after, but their power was limited and their transmissions were limited in speed. Mainline diesel haulage, as stand-alone locos, was very rare pre-war. The US had the most, most other railways only used one or two test prototype locos, not really deploying them into widespread service. It's post WWII and the combination of both the European rebuilding, and the availability of better engines that really drives it. Except in the countries that either go for electrification, or (like the UK) for indigenous coal rather than imported oil. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:54, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree with that. I just checked and the first locomotives of the first series of diesel shunters in my country were actually powered by petrol engines. When you look at the details it becomes a bit fuzzy anyway. Petrol engines are of course not really diesels, but have far more in common with diesels than with steam, so one can consider the petrol railcars and shunters of the 1920s a pre-stage of dieselisation. Does dieselisation start with diesel engines or in a somewhat broader sense with internal combustion engines? And does one count from the first experimental locomotive or from large-scale introduction? By the mid 1930s DMUs were becoming quite common on main lines, at least as far as they weren't electrified yet. The first large batch of diesel locomotives for goods trains was introduced in my country (NL) in 1945, as a gift from the Americans, but they performed so poorly that the railways tried to get rid of them as soon as possible, running goods services with steam (alongside electric) for another 12 years. Of course, in many parts of Europe diesel traction never became dominant.
 * So to answer the original question, one must first decide what dieselisation actually is, as there's no exact definition that everybody agrees on. Our article on dieselisation has a somewhat dubious definition with a long-standing tag. PiusImpavidus (talk) 12:39, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * There is a clear split between <=500hp "dieselisation" and >1000hp. The first covers railcars and shunters, and can be adequately provided by either petrol engines or heavyweight slow-speed oil engines, so they can happen pre-WWII (the standard British diesel shunter into the 1980s and beyond came from a design of the 1930s). The second, the use of diesels as mainline locomotives, doesn't become practical until the 1930s, or widespread until after WWII. Then the effects of WWII itself were also cataclysmic. The main difference between pre-WWII and immediately post-WWII mainline diesel locos were developments in diesel-electric transmissions, rather than engines or running gear.  Andy Dingley (talk) 13:09, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, let me clarify: For the purposes of this question, dieselization starts with the first successful introduction into regular service (not experimental) of any type of diesel motive power (switchers and railcars/DMUs count, but gasoline engines don't). 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:5917:3E80:D859:DF69 (talk) 10:17, 18 November 2017 (UTC)