Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2017 November 23

= November 23 =

Subway signals
What is the meaning of the flashing white light which is sometimes displayed under a green (line clear) aspect on the signals in the Berlin subway? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:1984:C5C9:D8FC:B368 (talk) 13:40, 23 November 2017 (UTC)


 * From what I can tell, it is an Abfertigungshilfssignal ("Auxiliary Departure Order Signal"): . (Very bottom of the page.)  It's a way of indicating to the train driver (conductor? I can't remember how U-Bahn trains are staffed) that it is safe to close the train doors.  I get the impression it's only used at busy stations and/or during periods of particularly high passenger traffic.  I managed to find a mention in the manual for World of Subways, as well.  See the bottom of page 28, my emphasis added:
 * Key „F2“ opens the station monitor. Only when all passengers have left or enterered the train (counter should be on „0“) your journey should continue. Of course only when your signal is on clear. (You´ll see a blinking white light at the bottom of the signal).
 * Hope that helps, and if anyone can find some better refs that would be great. (Did you see the signal while stopped at a station, or somewhere else on the line?) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:10, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * (EC) A list of signals is given here (in German). As far as I can see, the only flashing light is in "Anhang 2 • Abweichungen U5", which applies only to the line U5. Here, it appears to give permission to pass the signal at less than 20 km/h if the signal shows "halt" or is off (if I understand correctly - I'm not familiar with the Berlin underground). --Wrongfilter (talk) 15:17, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, this site has it as signal "A2" (missing from the link I gave above) and confirms what the reference of TenOfAllTrades said. And here's a video from a museum. --Wrongfilter (talk) 15:33, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * In this country, a steady white light (in various configurations) adjacent to the signal aspect indicates to the driver which track has been set up for him to take when he departs the station.  It generally lights up as the signal changes to green.   This certainly applies on above ground sections of the underground as well as National Rail - it probably applies in tunnels as well. You also see indicators beside on - track signals as you approach a major terminal station.   It's also handy for passengers - when you see the signal change as you approach the station you better run because the train will arrive in a minute or so. 92.8.223.3 (talk) 16:34, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

UK "Black Friday"
I just visited amazon.co.uk and was presented with a pile of Black Friday deals, e.g. an Amazon Echo for £34.99 rather than £49.99, or some Kindle-related item for £29.99 rather than £49.99. Uh, what? Is this what happens when I use an American IP to access a UK website (the server knows that it's a promotional date for my IP, so it picks some sales, without knowing that the website's locality doesn't observe that date), or have retailers made "Black Friday" some sort of shopping thing in the UK? US Thanksgiving being an average Thursday in other countries, I can't understand why tomorrow would be the occasion of any special sales event. I'm getting some Black Friday stuff on amazon.ca, e.g. 45% off on a snowblower and a Kindle Paperwhite goes from $139.99 to $99.99, but it's a good deal more subdued than on the UK site, and US-specific holidays are probably a good deal better known in Canada than in the UK. Amazon.fr is also giving me Black Friday deals (not Vendredi noir deals), e.g. a Kindle Paperwhite for 89,99€ instead of 129,99€, and it's prominent as on the UK site. Conversely, I saw nothing at all on amazon.com.au, so it's not a worldwide thing. Nyttend (talk) 17:17, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Here's the latest . 92.8.223.3 (talk) 17:20, 23 November 2017 (UTC)


 * As discussed in Black Friday, the idea of a shopping holiday has grown in popularity overseas during the last decade or so, largely on the back of internet companies. Here is Switzerland, there are physical stores with massive displays advertising "Black Friday" deals (note it is often "Black Friday" and I've yet to see any signs for "Schwarzer Freitag").  Dragons flight (talk) 17:41, 23 November 2017 (UTC)


 * So your complaint is that an American holiday is saving you furriners moola? Eu weh! ¡Feliz Día de pavo! μηδείς (talk) 18:49, 23 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Specifically, Black Friday (shopping) which says: "In 2013 Asda (a subsidiary of the American firm Walmart) announced its "Walmart's Black Friday by ASDA" campaign promoting the American concept of a retail "Black Friday" in the UK. Some online and in-store companies have adopted the American-style Black Friday sale day, although others appear sceptical, with one 2013 comment piece in the trade publication Retail Week labelling it "simply an Americanism, which doesn't translate very well". Things have moved on a bit since then and "Black Friday" has become "a thing" over here, driven I suppose, like Father's Day, by the chance to make money. I for one, scrupulously avoid buying anything at all on "Black Friday" in the forlorn hope that like King Canute, the tide will be turned back. Don't hold your breath.  Alansplodge (talk) 20:04, 23 November 2017 (UTC)


 * As per usual, the plebs think they should imitate the Septics in everything, and the shops are more than happy to assist. A few years ago, there were stampedes at shops, the year after there weren't. Seems to have been a short spike that retailers want to keep going. Fgf10 (talk) 11:06, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Don't you mean Sceptics? As to the Swiss keeping the English title instead of translating it, the origin of the term might not make sense if translated literally into other languages. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:54, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I suspect thios is a variant of sepo, from the Rhyming slang "septic tank" meaning yank. -- Q Chris (talk) 13:18, 24 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Cute. Well, Brits may consider "Yank" to be insulting, but we Yanks wear it like a badge of honor. (Them Brits are still a bit irritated about 1776 and all that.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:24, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm English myself, and I do find attempted sales-driven cultural imports annoying but I don't think that it justifies insulting citizens of the originating country. BTW my wife is from Texas and she has quite a different opinion of "Yank" being a badge of honour ;-) -- Q Chris (talk) 13:29, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, there's an old saying that to a foreigner, a Yankee is an American. To a southerner, a Yankee is a northerner. To a northerner, a Yankee is a New Englander. And so on. (I've also heard it said that to a northerner a Texan is a southerner, but to a Texan a southerner is a southerner and a Texan is a Texan.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:51, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I think I've heard of it with to a northerner a Yankee is a northeasterner (not sure if Illinoians, Minnesotans, Iowans, Wisconsinans, Michiganders and so on really think New Jerseyans and Pennsylvanians are yankees, perhaps they're confused by the New York Yankees?), to a northeasterner he's a New Englander, to him he's a Vermonter and to a Vermonter he's a Vermonter who eats his porridge cold in an unheated outhouse with his long john flap open in sub-freezing weather (or something like that). Really the Red Sox and Yankees would've made more sense with the names switched. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:43, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The Yankees and Red Sox were both originally "Americans", as opposed to "Nationals", referring to their leagues. "Yankees" came from that. The Boston Americans (who had previously worn blue) adopted red and the name "Red Sox" after the Boston Nationals (who were originally the Red Stockings) had temporarily dropped the red from their uniforms. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:01, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * That wasn't very imaginative. And when they played each other it would've been the American League Americans vs the American League Americans. Do you know why it's Nationals, Orioles, Phillies, Yankees (alternating league, if only West CT and Long Island were more competitive and more Mets respectively the pattern could continue with Mets and Sox) and Redskins, Ravens, Eagles, Jets, Giants and Patriots have the same affiliation as baseball? (but the better NY team's usually National in football unlike baseball) Coincidence? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:55, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Not quite. It would have been the New York Americans and the Boston Americans, as opposed to the New York Nationals and the Boston Nationals. Prior to the American League coming along, it would have been the New Yorks and the Bostons. And you're right that they weren't very imaginative. Marketing improved over time. So, you really want to get into these details? OK. :) In a nutshell: "Washington Nationals" echoes the name of one of the early ca. 1870 Washington teams. Orioles, named for the bird. Phillies, diminutive of "Philadelphia". Mets, for Metropolitans. Washington Redskins, originally Boston Redskins, named in reference to the Boston Braves. Ravens, suggestive of one of the poems of Baltimore's own Edgar Allan Poe. Eagles, patriotism. Jets, originally called Titans, renamed to rhyme with "Mets". Patriots, obvious. Philadelphia and Boston were both important cities in the American Revolution. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:41, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Right but going from DC to Boston its National, American, National, both, American for both football and baseball and there's a nice alternation thing going on. I used the measure tool of Google Maps to draw lines between Boston and the most disfavorable center of DC (Capitol, not Zero Milestone/obelisk/center of the "cross"/"Downtown"/White House)  and Fenway and the DC ballparks and New York's ballparks since the Polo Grounds closed and it does appear that since '64 the Mets' stadium has always been very, very, very, very slightly Bostonward and Fenwayward of Yankee Stadium. So you could actually say they alternate National, American, National, American, National, American for 6 teams without resorting to trying to see if the Mets' fanbase is more northeastward than the Yankees'. But it's very slight, it's like Fenway's one end of a ruler, DC's the other end and Citi Field and Yankee Stadium are on opposite corners of a tick mark the width of a hair. Also I didn't try to estimate a best-fit line for the 5 cities or their ballparks or metro populations but the megalopolis is pretty straight. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:10, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * From 1901 thru 1971 the team in Washington was an American League team. And the Yankees played their games at Shea during 1974-75. The football Giants played their games in Connecticut during that same stretch. During 1901-1952 there were two teams in Boston. During 1901-1911 they played their games across the railroad tracks from each other. During 1901-1954 there were two teams in Philadelphia, and during 1938-1954 they shared the same ballpark. During 1913-1922 the Giants and Yankees both played in the Polo Grounds. The Mets' fan base was originally presumed to be "orphaned" Giants and Dodgers fans, which is ironic because they "hated" each other. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:38, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Before 1958 was Manhattan bandwagon Yankees fans below a certain street? Was Queens Dodgers fans? If NY can't hold 3 MLB teams then why can it hold 3 NHL teams? Baseball's more popular than hockey in the area and the NHL likes to relocate and expand to small warm places like 1990s Raleigh and Nashville. Well, Houston's much bigger and Texas has half the NHL teams per capita of California. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:10, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * New York City and vicinity had three MLB teams during 1903-1957. The three current New York area NHL teams is kind of an odd situation. The histories of the major NYC sports teams is pretty detailed. You might want to read the articles about them. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:00, 25 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Firstly, as far as I know, Britons are not in the least irritated about 1776 and indeed celebrated your 200th anniversary by issuing stamps[] and casting bells [], among other things. Secondly, FG10 appears to be Dutch and they happened to be fighting the British at the time so if they hate you, it's for a different reason altogther. Thirdly many British people find the term Brit insulting, and lastly, your xenophobic comments don't belong here (or anywhere for that matter)!

No wonder people are trying to shut this shitshop down.[]--Ykraps (talk) 17:00, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * FGF brought it up, so I assume he's the one you're yelling at. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:05, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Your assumptions are your biggest problem.--Ykraps (talk) 18:09, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Things could be worse. Any guesses what a good rhyming slang for "Brit" would be? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:45, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * My mistake. You've obviously got much bigger problems.--Ykraps (talk) 19:13, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * FGF brought it up. Or are his own xenophobic comments OK in your book? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:18, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Evidently you don't know what the word xenophobic means. And it's you who seems to be obsessed with 1776. Ask the average Brit, and that date would be meaningless. Fgf10 (talk) 20:27, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Denial. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:43, 24 November 2017 (UTC)


 * As others have hinted at, this likely has very little to do with anyone trying to emulate anything except making money. The growth of online shopping including international online shopping has meant that people are seeing the good deals in the US and so are buying stuff from there. To compete, local online retailers have needed to have similar promotions. To compete, local offline retails have needed to have similar promotions. And to be clear, most people are buying the black friday deals in the US (or whatever) because they want to be Americans or because they think it's a cool concept or whatever, they're doing it because thy see good deals and don't want to waste their money just to show they aren't Americans by refusing to buy stuff that is cheap. In other words, this is mostly to do with a competitive market place and the significance of the US online retail market rather than because of any desire to emulate the US culturally or whatever as you seem to be implying. This is not to suggest there's no relevance of the dominance of American culture, e.g. Df's point about the name, but there's no particular reason to think this is anything more than the fact that the name conjures "great deals" in the minds of those that hear it. (And here in NZ, at the moment at the moment at least a number of retailers are still using similar terms but not necessary Black Friday. E.g. Red Friday for one retailer strongly associated with the colour red. Blackout sale or plenty of other stuff that somehow has black in it. I mean one retailer still has their black friday sale a while before, this year timed just before 11.11 and then yesterday had a price blackout sale.) At least in NZ, and to an even greater extent in Malaysia, you're seeing something similar with 11.11. Nil Einne (talk) 07:08, 25 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Makes you proud to be British.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 13:45, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Aha! So it's not just a WalMart phenomenon. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:52, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Even some of the smaller supermarkets and other stores in the UK are now offering "Black Friday" deals, though they usually spread the offer over several days.   D b f i r s   15:00, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Here's another assessment. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:41, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * One Norwegian shop is protesting against the trend by doubling prices instead. Iapetus (talk) 15:57, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * That's called "cutting off your nose to spite your face." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:58, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The phrase generally implies what you're doing is causing significant harm. I don't see how you know whether the move is actually going to significantly harm the store, for all we know it may end up being a net benefit. Nil Einne (talk) 07:10, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * It's possible. It depends on how many customers decide to pay higher prices at his store than they would elsewhere. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:30, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * By that argument, any form of protest that has a cost (which is probably any that is effective) would be "cutting off your nose to spite your face." Iapetus (talk) 09:23, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Certainly protests can cost. I'd like to know why someone would purposely pay more for the same product they could get cheaper elsewhere. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:04, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * From the description, the owner thinks Black Friday is a bad idea, and doesn't want to take part. He could of course just not offered any discounts - in which he would presumably still lose sales from people going elsewhere.  Doubling the prices might therefore not actually make much/any difference to his sales.  Plus, if any of the customers agree with the protest, they are likely to not buy anything that day, but get it later when they are normal price again.  Finally, and this may be a bit cynical - by pulling this stunt, he gets a lot more free publicity than he would if he had just quietly decided not to offer any discounts that day. Iapetus (talk) 09:29, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
 * And there's another saying about people who would purposely spend more money with that guy, as a "protest": "There's a sucker born every minute." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:12, 29 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Australia is starting to mimic this practice - . Sad, because normally whenever the word 'black' is appended to a day of the week, it denotes a disaster with terrible loss of life, or life savings (Black Friday, Black Saturday).  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:36, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Has similar connotations in New Zealand – example Black budget. Akld guy (talk) 21:40, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * America too (Black Monday (1987)). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:12, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Not to mention Black Tuesday, Black Wednesday, Black Thursday and Black Sunday too. Alansplodge (talk) 00:19, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * "11.11" is "Singles Day" or "Stick Day" in China.  It's much bigger than Black Friday.   It was a Saturday this year.   We don't have Black Saturday (it's a dab) but we do have this . 92.27.49.50 (talk) 15:12, 26 November 2017 (UTC)