Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2018 March 15

= March 15 =

9/11 in Serbia
Is it true that in Serbia they celebrate September 11 as a holiday? If so, is it because they actually celebrate the attacks, or is it because, by coincidence, it's a day of significance in Serbian history (for example, an Orthodox Christian holiday, or the anniversary of a major victory over, say, the Turks or the Crusaders)? Note that I am NOT trying to insinuate anything here one way or the other, but ONLY trying to check the facts. 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:0:0:0:64DA (talk) 10:39, 15 March 2018 (UTC)


 * As far as I can tell, it's not true, see Public Holidays in Serbia 2018. The Serbian Orthodox Church celebrates the Exaltation of the Cross on 14 September (see Feast of the Cross), so maybe some confusion there. The Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria celebrates Nayrouz on 11 September (the Coptic New Year and something resembling All Saints Day combined), but I doubt that there is a substantial Coptic presence in Serbia. Alansplodge (talk) 11:04, 15 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Our articles September 11 and September 11 (Eastern Orthodox liturgics) mention several Christian feast days on that date, though most of them are not particularly important to the wider population:


 * Feast day for Francesco Bonifacio.
 * Feast day for Deiniol.
 * Feast day for Felix and Regula (and their servant Exuperantius)
 * Feast day for Harry Burleigh.
 * Feast day for John Gabriel Perboyre.
 * Feast day for Leudinus.
 * Feast day for Our Lady of Coromoto.
 * Feast day for Paphnutius of Thebes.
 * Feast day for Patiens of Lyon
 * Feast day for Protus and Hyacinth
 * Feast day for Sperandia.
 * Feast day for Theodora of Alexandria (a woman who spend most of her life disguised as a man).
 * Feast day for "Martyrs Demetrius, his wife Evanthia, and their son Demetrian". We do not have articles on them.
 * Feast day for "Martyrs Serapion, Cronides (Hieronides), and Leontius, of Alexandria". We do not have articles on them.
 * Feast day for "Martyr Ia of Persia and 9,000 martyrs with her". We do not have articles on her and the anonymous people who supposedly died with her.
 * Feast day for "Martyrs Diodorus, Didymus, and Diomedes of Laodicea". We do not have articles on them.
 * Feast day for "Saint Euphrosynus the Cook of Alexandria". We do not have an article on him.
 * Feast day for "Venerable Elias the Cave-dweller of Calabria (Elia Speleota), and his spiritual father St. Arsenios". We do not have articles on them.
 * Feast day for Saint Theodora of Vastas (a woman who disguised herself as a man, served as a soldier, and was killed in battle)
 * Feast day for Saint Emilian, Bishop of Vercelli. We do not have an article on him.
 * Feast day for Saint Vincent of León, Abbot of St Claudius in León in Spain. We do not have an article on him.
 * Feast day for Saint Almirus (Almer, Almire), a common hermit. We do not have an article on him.
 * Feast day for Saint Adelphus, Abbot of Remiremont Abbey. Mostly known as the grandson and heir of Romaric. We do not have an article on him.
 * Feast day for Silouan the Athonite.
 * Feast day for Saint John, Abbot of Svyatogorsk Monastery. We do not have an article on him.
 * Feast day for "Hieromartyrs Nicholas Podyakov and Victor Usov". We do not have articles on them.
 * Feast day for "Hieromartyr Carp Elba, Priest". We do not have an article on him.
 * Feast day for "Hieromartyr Nicholas Shirogorov, Deacon". We do not have an article on him.
 * Commemoration of the Translation of relics of Sergius and Herman, Wonder-workers of Valaam Monastery.
 * Commemoration of the Weeping Kazan Icon of the Most Holy Theotokos "of Kaplunovka".
 * Commemoration of the Glorification of St. Xenia of Saint Petersburg, Fool-for-Christ.
 * Commemoration of the Synaxis of the Saints of the Svatogorsk Monastery.
 * Commemoration of the Repose of the young Elder Melchizedek of Mzensk. We do not have an article on him. Dimadick (talk) 13:02, 15 March 2018 (UTC)


 * On the other hand our article on Public holidays in Serbia makes it clear that the Islamic festival of Eid al-Adha is a public holiday there. This is a movable feast and was expected to fall on 11 September in 2016, but because the moon wasn't visible in Mecca on September 1 it was moved to September 12.  I'll not pretend I understand this in detail. --Antiquary (talk) 13:19, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The date is dependent on the date of the new moon for that month, but traditionally the new moon is determined not by astronomic calculation but by direct observation in Mecca. As a result, the date can move by a day depending on conditions on the ground. Many Muslim communities base the date when they observe this feast (as well as the start and end of Ramadan) on the observation made in Mecca, while others will use local observation (and a few ones will astronomic calculation). The result is that these dates are not known precisely in advance (except for the third case), and will usually vary by a day in different parts of the Muslim world. See New moon --Xuxl (talk) 13:43, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. It would seem from this that European Muslims generally use the Mecca observation.  They must have been getting the jitters in Serbia and elsewhere in the summer of 2016 – it really would not have played well. --Antiquary (talk) 15:33, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Parts of the world including Europe have had Eid al-Adha or Eid al-Fitr on September 11, 2016 or 2010 but not Serbia as far as I can find (nor the US). The rules are complex (i.e. local sighting vs. global sighting vs. follow country X vs. follow country Y vs. rules that only need astronomical calculations without waiting for anything) and even the same country can have believers who follow different rules. I don't know what latitude or buttiness frequency is needed to screw up the common "month is 30 days if not seen on 29 rule" nor what level of latitude or buttiness causes all Muslims to abandon local sighting but that's another thing that makes it really hard to know for sure. Perhaps at least some Muslims are also of the interpretation that if your mosque used local sighting and had a late Ramadan 1 and you travel to a place with an earlier Moon you still have to fast 30 days? At any rate if you followed strict local sighting and had a good, clear horizon it was September 11, 2010 at both Serbia and Ground Zero (not finding the Moon without optical aid doesn't count). Though I believe it's common in the modern era for a sighting in any part of the country to end a month in the whole country (I don't know about Shia) which would mean Eid was September 10 in the US and I haven't found evidence for anything but Serbia follows Turkey which would suggest September 9. Allowing any part of a country to start the month for the country obviously would reduce the number of times you don't know if the Moon would've been sighted or not if it wasn't butty.Anywhere in green and teal might've seen the Moon on September 2 making Eid September 11th but not Serbia, it's too far from the equator (and local sighting isn't a common enough method to mention on that page anyway). The next time one of these 2 holidays is very near September 11 somewhere on Earth is 2075 and 2049 (but probably not 2049 for any sane latitude to be using local sighting nor any other method). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 07:59, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Being a Croatian, I don't know much about Serbian religious Orthodox holidays, but I can attest that no country in Europe is celebrating WTC attacks. That is pure nonsense. 93.136.119.107 (talk) 00:36, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, no country in Europe OFFICIALLY celebrates the 9/11 attacks, that much is certain -- however, I've been told (by a person whom I know to usually tell the truth) that many PEOPLE in Serbia celebrate 9/11, allegedly because of the NATO bombing of Serbia -- and that's why I asked the question, to see if he was right or wrong about the celebrations, and whether (if they indeed take place) they are connected to the attacks or to something else altogether (religious holiday, military victory, etc.) 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:0:0:0:64DA (talk) 08:05, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
 * There are surely people who privately feel "vindicated" by the attacks, but I really doubt that anything happens that is more organized than a few Milošević diehard supporters raising their glasses in a pub. (If anything, a few of our mass media companies would've jumped on such an event like starving animals...) 9/11 isn't really a thing around here either in terms of comemmoration or "anti-comemmoration". 93.136.36.57 (talk) 01:05, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Why'd you change cloud to butt in my post? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:18, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Who, me?! I changed nothing! 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:0:0:0:64DA (talk) 03:53, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
 * 93. did. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:37, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

What's the verdict on microfinance to farmers?
The general verdict on microfinance is that it doesn't work (long term improvements in livelihoods of borrowers v. those who aren't borrowers): Typical article with this conclusion But is there an academic consensus on whether certain types of microfinance work? Like for example this one study of microfinance to small hold farmers in Brazil shows robust results. But that is just one study. What about microfinance to farmers that is more supervised like only permitting disbursed money to be used for inputs and farm improvements? Muzzleflash (talk) 18:05, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
 * See Is Microfinance an Effective Strategy to Reach the Millennium Development Goals? here . For recent systematic reviews, I was not able to find a comprehensive one, but The Impact of Microfinance in Sub-Saharan Africa: A Systematic Review of the Evidence seems like a pretty good source for the region. Looking the references there and articles that city that one  will probably also be fruitful, turning up e.g. this study, and this one  The Impact of Microfinance on Poverty Reduction: Empirical Evidence from Malaysian Perspective . Finally, I'll note that Nate Silver/his blog are not really reliable sources, I'd steer clear of him and any other celebrity non-expert edu-tainers. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:19, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Echoing SemanticMantis and adding that I wouldn't even trust so-called RS, since they all have agendas to push. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 22:14, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the links for me to follow. I read through them. However, RS definitely isn't alone in declaring that the literature is against the claims of effectiveness of microfinance. Muzzleflash (talk) 17:45, 20 March 2018 (UTC)