Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2018 October 9

= October 9 =

Cannon in Greece
Please help identify this cannon (mortar? Bombard?). It is placed in Kissos (Pelion, Greece). I estimate its length is about 1 meter, and muzzle diameter about 25 cms. No stamp or other inscription could be detected. Etan J. Tal(talk) 19:20, 9 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Could you be more explicit with the location? I've been Googling on cannon kissos pelion without success. For example, is it in a fort or historical park or something? If we could narrow down the location, we may be able to do a better job of identification. It is odd-looking. There appears to be rifling, but my reading of the mortar article is that it was typically narrower muzzled guns that had that. It physically resembles on old bombard, but I think those were typically smooth-bored. Matt Deres (talk) 21:46, 9 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Kissos is a very small old village in the Pelion region (Greece). The 'cannon' is placed near a memorial, adjacent to Agia Marina church in the main square. It is exactly the discrepancy you mention (riflings vs. smooth bore) that makes it more difficult to define - is it a mortar, a bombard or a cannon? Enlarging the photo one may recognize small numbers in the muzzle... Please have a look at:

https://www.google.co.il/maps/place/Kissos+370+12,+Greece/@39.4058098,23.1320938,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipOeXf-a2fECnl5gBPiKipqEs9AJYitDVV_08UIJ!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipOeXf-a2fECnl5gBPiKipqEs9AJYitDVV_08UIJ%3Dw152-h86-k-no!7i4032!8i2268!4m5!3m4!1s0x14a70e37780c11a3:0x83022c4c37ffa0fd!8m2!3d39.4058098!4d23.1320938

The cannon can be seen at the left side of the memorial. Etan J. Tal(talk) 22:41, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Do you have any images of the breech?  Given the general ramshackle nature of this thing, especially the carriage, I think it's the muzzle of a once much longer gun, cut down, and mounted as a caricature of an artillery piece to decorate the memorial. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:59, 10 October 2018 (UTC)


 * KissosCanon1.jpg Etan J. Tal(talk) 05:29, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm wondering if this is some relatively modern (WWII? 1950s?) anti-submarine mortar? Andy Dingley (talk) 09:10, 10 October 2018 (UTC)


 * The mount/carriage is clearly just something made out of arbitrary junk. I rather doubt it is even a complete barrel/tube. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:45, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Is it 380mm calibre? Andy Dingley (talk) 10:01, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
 * My estimation - as far as I remember - It is around 25 cms calibre. Etan J. Tal(talk) 10:11, 10 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree that it's some kind of mortar (or similar "projector" or "thrower"). We can tell from the high quality of the machining (in the rifling and inside the "trunion" plate) that it's no earlier than the late 19th century. The bore is huge but the barrel thin, so it's firing a low-pressure charge. It doesn't appear to have any breech mechanism, and the breech doesn't appear to be significantly fatter than the muzzle (again, suggesting it's firing at low-pressure). There are siege mortars roughly that size (e.g. File:8inSiegeMortar.jpg) but their barrels are much thicker. I don't think this barrel was cut down, as the quality of the muzzle end is too professional - but the carriage is indeed village blacksmith nonsense. This article has photos of a variety of British ASW mortars, several of which are broadly similar the the barrel shown here. Presumably those of other navies were comparable. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 15:22, 10 October 2018 (UTC)


 * It's also quite similar to (but I don't think is) the 290mm mortar on a Churchill AVRE. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 15:48, 10 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I do find some similarities to the mortars shown in and . Specifically: the 'ring' (fillet?) of muzzle lip and the slight swell of muzzle.  It is probably a German 25cm schwerer Minenwerfer (Heavy mortar). The elongated ruler-like protrusion on the back of Kissos mortar is clearly seen in both stock photos. Similar construction of the rear part can be seen in  .  Etan J. Tal(talk) 21:17, 10 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I think you're right - if not a 25 cm schwerer Minenwerfer then something very similar. The trouble with most photos of that mortar online is that they show the whole gun, with the mortar barrel housed in the hydraulic recoil mechanism. But this photo, which claims to be of the 25 cm minemwerfer's breech, shows similar lettering to your photo, and crucially is marked into split quarters. On your photo, one quadrant is missing. I wonder if this is a safely mechanism, so that if the tube bursts, they want to it to rupture backward into the recoil carriage, and not sideways into the operators - a bit like the scored can tops on aluminum electrolytic capacitors. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 22:07, 10 October 2018 (UTC)


 * And this photo of that mortar's muzzle matches yours. Looking more at the drilled holes at the breech end in your gun, they match the 25 cm exactly. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 22:20, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Well spotted!  The cut breech may be just that - done to demilitarise it, beyond repair.
 * Now, how did it come to be in Greece? Andy Dingley (talk) 23:04, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
 * It's a WWI era German gun, perhaps it was captured by the Greeks during the war? Greece didn't see much action during WWI, but there were a few battles they won vs. the Central Powers, specifically Battle of Skra-di-Legen.  Maybe it was a prize of war from that or a similar battle?  Just some speculation.  -- Jayron 32 23:25, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you all for your helpful cooperation! Etan J. Tal(talk) 08:01, 11 October 2018 (UTC)