Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2019 August 28

= August 28 =

Overseas absentee ballots in Palm Beach County in 2000
Hi, with regard to the absentee ballots of the county of Palm Beach, that is to say the voters abroad in 2000, the latter were probably also punched with a different style but counted by hand by election workers, and not by voting machines? So was the counting taking place? Thank you, I'm very curious about this thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.41.100.198 (talk) 09:18, 28 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Absentee ballots are not "punched". They are filled out with a pen. They are counted by hand if necessary. Example: Assume you have an election and one candidate is 2,000 votes ahead of the other. You have 100 absentee ballots. Do you use county resources to count those ballots? Of course not. This isn't sports. Nobody cares if someone wins by 2,000 or 1,900 votes. If, however, one candidate is ahead by 100 votes and you have 100 absentee ballots, it is possible that every ballot is for the current loser. So, you start counting. If you find just one vote for the candidate who is ahead, there is no way for the ballots to get the one behind caught up. So, you stop. That is why it is possible that absentee ballots are ignored. It is also why they sometimes start counting and stop. However, extensive abuse of the absentee ballot system is making it more and more common to count absentee ballots simply because there are so many more of them. But, they are not all counted. They count enough to ensure that the uncounted ones aren't enough to change the result. 199.164.8.1 (talk) 14:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * for the claim there is "extensive abuse of the absentee ballot system". I'm not an American but I follow the US election process enough to know there are a lot of claims of fraud without any real evidence. So if claims are going to be made on the RD of such things, evidence should be provided. An increase in the number is no real evidence in fraud, it could be either there are more people legally eligible or more eligible people who bother to take part. Nil Einne (talk) 05:52, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
 * There are two definitions of abuse here. The one used above is "people claiming to be unable to vote in person when they can vote in person." Another is "people sending in a ballot for another person." The sharp increases in absentee ballots indicates that people are opting to mail in a ballot instead of voting in person. 135.84.167.41 (talk) 15:05, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
 * 199.164.8.1, there are several factual errors in your post:
 * "Absentee ballots are not "punched"." I have personally voted a "punched" absentee ballot, though I don't recall in which of four possible decades and four possible US states it was in. The ballot included a foam backing sheet for ease of punching and a punch tool which was a wire with one end bent into a loop to serve as a grip. (I've no idea why the image of that tool is so sharp in my mind.) This image of a 1992 Missouri absentee ballot sounds similar, as it included a "Ballot Card, which is mounted on styrofoam backing" and a "Wire Punch Device (paper clip)". I do not know how recently a "punched" absentee ballot has been used in the US.
 * "... they are not all counted. They count enough to ensure that the uncounted ones aren't enough to change the result." This is a common myth. Our article Absentee ballot includes the multi-sourced statement, "It is sometimes inaccurately claimed that absentee ballots are not counted unless the race is close; in fact, all valid absentee ballots are counted even if they will not affect the outcome of the election." It is true that the result of an election may be "called" before absentee ballots are counted if their number is insufficient to affect the result, but they are all eventually counted to be included in the final official results.
 * "... extensive abuse of the absentee ballot system ... there are so many more of them." It used to be the case that absentee ballots were provided only for those voters who could not be present at the polls on election day, so requesting such a ballot under false pretenses would be considered abuse. But most jurisdictions have removed such requirements and many are encouraging vote-by-mail participation as a cheaper option to staffing large polling stations.
 * 93.41.100.198, it is a shame that we have been unable to answer your very specific question, but even more of a shame that we have been so verbose in our non-answer. -- 173.72.209.196 (talk) 04:10, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Some sources for all these assertions would be good. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:02, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * #1 sourced via link to image of a 1992 Missouri absentee "punch" ballot with punching instructions and #2 linked our own article and quoted a triply sourced statement, so that leaves #3 which is readily supported by a simple search which turns up results such as:
 * MIT Election Lab Explains: Voting by Mail and Absentee Voting | MIT Election Lab (contains a history of the changes in requirements for obtaining an absentee ballot)
 * Most states have both early and no-excuse absentee balloting, but not Minnesota
 * -- 173.72.209.196 (talk) 12:09, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you. And the poster making claims to the contrary should also provide some evidence. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:06, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. In practice, an absentee ballot is different from a traditional ballot. Are there the names of the candidates on the ballot, and a space to "blacken" or compile as in optical scans? Can my interpretation be correct? Thanks again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.41.100.198 (talk) 15:00, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * If you do a search for "absentee ballot images", you will find many images. There is no standard format. You will see many different takes on the same concept. They are paper. They have boxes or squares or something similar to fill in. 135.84.167.41 (talk) 19:10, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

The absentee ballots were not punched, they were paper forms, mailed or in some cases faxed, and there was a ton of drama about how they were counted. Jeffrey Toobin wrote the book "Too Close to Call: The Thirty-Six-Day Battle to Decide the 2000 Election" which covered the battle extensively. I haven't read it so I can't guarantee it answers your specific question, but it's probably where I'd start if I were trying to research it. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 08:07, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Question about Vesna Vulović
Today's featured article Vesna Vulović says that she fell from a height of over 10 km without a parachute and survived. What did she fall on? J I P &#124; Talk 18:22, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * According to the article, she was found "amid the wreckage" so presumably that helped to cushion her fall. Also that is a forested area, and according to this article the trees softened the blow, but apparently she was saved by a food cart.--Shantavira|feed me 18:58, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * This BBC report suggests that she was trapped (by the food cart) inside the tail section of the falling aircraft. "According to investigators, Vulovic was trapped by a food cart in the plane's tail section as it plummeted to earth in freezing temperatures. The tail landed in a heavily wooded and snow-blanketed part of a mountainside, which was thought to have cushioned the impact". Alansplodge (talk) 11:38, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
 * And we already know how useful it is to have access to some peanuts for such a traumatic trip.--Shantavira|feed me 12:02, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if a falling tail section would fall faster or slower than the terminal velocity of a falling human but wouldn't want to try it anyway. Perhaps the crumpling of the fuselage on impact acted as a shock absorber?
 * We have a Category:Fall survivors. Nicholas Alkemade of the RAF survived a 5 km fall by means of a similar tree / snow combination. Alansplodge (talk) 12:55, 29 August 2019 (UTC)


 * When this was attempted on Mythbusters, they made a comment that terminal velocity was reduced slightly, but was still a very deadly velocity. Needless to say, the dummy in their test did not survive. 135.84.167.41 (talk) 15:03, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
 * That episode is on YouTube, although not sure of the copyright status so I'm avoiding a direct link. It's called "Freefall Flight Attendant". Alansplodge (talk) 18:23, 30 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Perhaps if some combo of the tail fin and vertical stabilizer(s) were missing, the tail would spin rapidly and have an autorotation effect, slowing speed to a survivable terminal velocity. The forces from such a spin could also be deadly, but if the person was at the center of rotation, this would be minimized. Still, they would likely need to be belted in to not be ejected. SinisterLefty (talk) 19:00, 30 August 2019 (UTC)