Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2019 December 5

= December 5 =

Wikipedia shut down?
Are you guys shutting down? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:750A:500:443D:2D33:8F18:8385 (talk) 00:34, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Who put that idea in your head? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:14, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Make a wish, it might come true. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 01:28, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Your asking people to donate money it seems as if your going to shut down? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:750A:500:443D:2D33:8F18:8385 (talk) 03:25, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Nah. Wikipedia has been annoying people with those notices for a very long time. Feel free to donate, or ignore. HiLo48 (talk) 03:32, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * And according to Wikipediocracy, WMF has gazillions of dollars. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:16, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * If Wikipediocracy uses "gazillions" in its numbering system, then it is demonstrably not a reliable source for anything. But we already knew that. Instead, take a look at the references in Wikimedia Foundation, which assert that current income exceeds current expenses by about US $20 million per year, and that the foundation has an endowment of about US $35 million. That being said, these are small dollar amounts compared to the income and spending of other Top Ten websites. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  07:21, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Locomotive shield (?)
What is the purpose of the side-shield-thing that are on some, but not all steam locomotives (even the same type)? 107.15.157.44 (talk) 03:03, 5 December 2019 (UTC)


 * They're called Smoke deflectors. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:18, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Bugs -- Wikipedia really does have an article on everything!  107.15.157.44 (talk) 06:26, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * And it even has one on that: WHAAOE. I can't remember whose "completeness" theorem is the best description of this situation. DMacks (talk) 06:53, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Gödel?  107.15.157.44 (talk) 06:58, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Martin Löb?John Z (talk) 09:22, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

One quick question
I just have one quick question i asked this not long ago but i'd like to know just two things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthy_diet#Harvard_School_of_Public_Health I'm following this diet and find it to be rather effective id just like to know it says try to avoid red meat when they say that do they mean avoid it or is that not what they are saying? Last question is artificially sweetened drinks i understand why they are recommending them but are they recommending energy drinks or soft drinks its hard to know what they are recommending because artificially sweetened drinks aren't they present in most drinks? Or i might be wrong. Someone please reply when you can. -- 110.151.188.8
 * Saying "try to avoid" is the same as "avoid if possible". As to soft drinks, you can get around that problem by sticking to water. Any concerns you have about any of this subject, see your doctor. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:21, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Hey, those are two questions, not one! By "avoid red meat", they mean "eat as little red meat as possible". Red meat consumption, and especially processed red meat (sausages, etc.), is strongly correlated with increased mortality and morbidity. No, this doesn't mean the occasional hamburger or hot dog will kill you, but anything more than one to two servings a week is inadvisable. Note that a "serving" has a particular size; a dish may contain multiple servings of an ingredient. As for the advice to choose artificially-sweetened beverages over sugary beverages, they mean avoid beverages with added sugar (non-diet sodas, etc.). A product's nutrition label will tell you whether it has sugar added, assuming you live somewhere nutrition labels are mandated. Artificial sweeteners are used in place of sugar as a sweetener; they're generally not present in drinks with sugar. "Energy drink" and "soft drink" are marketing terms and don't mean much in terms of nutrition, other than that "energy drinks" often contain higher amounts of caffeine. Most big "energy drink" and "soft drink" brands offer both sugar-sweetened and artificially-sweetened versions. (I found your previous question by searching the archives for "artificially sweetened". Apparently people overlooked that part of the question.) --47.146.63.87 (talk) 06:26, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, the other funny thing is they say limit foods high in saturated fat and I've looked at foods high in saturated fat seen in animal fat products such as cream, cheese, butter, other whole milk dairy products and fatty meats but do they mean eat Many prepared foods are high in saturated fat content, such as pizza, dairy desserts, and sausage as well or not? I'm not sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:750A:500:443D:2D33:8F18:8385 (talk) 07:01, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * What you should focus on is getting your fats from polyunsaturated fats and monounsaturated fats. Saturated and trans fats should be avoided where possible, and instead one should focus getting your dietary fats from unsaturated fats.  -- Jayron 32 13:59, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Are you offering medical advice?--WaltCip (talk) 15:18, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * That's common knowledge. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:46, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * No, are you? -- Jayron 32 15:51, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, the "common knowledge" that cholesterol or saturated is unhealthy and polyunsaturated healthy is still in dispute, one partly reflected in our articles on Saturated fat, Saturated fat and cardiovascular disease and Lipid hypothesis, say. To identify my position here - IMHO the disputers' criticisms adhere to higher scientific and logical standards than the mainstream hypotheses. The disputers appear to be very slowly gaining ground. E.g. cessation of lowering cholesterol intake in official recommendations. The now accepted recommendation against trans fats (which are unsaturated) came from such skeptics like Mary Enig.John Z (talk) 09:09, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The evidence of a link between high saturated fat intake and chronic diseases is quite strong. The abandoning of recommendations on cholesterol intake was based on newer evidence that ingested cholesterol mostly just "substitutes" for endogenous cholesterol production by the liver, and thus doesn't have much of an effect on blood cholesterol or lipoprotein composition. True, the previous lack of attention to trans fats was bad, born of a failure to investigate the differences between how trans and cis fatty acids affect the body. There's also some evidence that non-manmade trans fats may not be as harmful as the "artificial" ones produced by partial hydrogenation. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 11:18, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * "The evidence of a link between high saturated fat intake and chronic diseases is quite strong." That is what is in dispute. A minority says the majority's arguments are empirically and logically defective and ignores contrary evidence. It's not going to be resolved here. Though this movie: Sleeper (1973 film) indicates which side is right. :-)John Z (talk) 22:28, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

That’s why they say Choose foods containing healthy fats. Plant oils, nuts, and fish are the best choices. Limit consumption of saturated fats, and avoid foods with trans fat. But when they mean limit consumption of saturated fats what I mean to ask is would they mean limit foods with high saturated fat like animal fat products such as cream, cheese, butter, other whole milk dairy products and fatty meats but do they also mean eat Many prepared foods are high in saturated fat content, such as pizza, dairy desserts, and sausage as well or not? I'm not sure whether they are recommending to eat both or one of them is what I’m asking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:750A:500:A58B:3CF6:FE59:DCB7 (talk) 13:21, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
 * No, prepared foods are usually high in trans fats or saturated fats themselves, both of which should be minimized. The recommendation to choose "healthy fats" noted there refers to monounsaturated fats and polyunsaturated fats, and you were referred to both of those articles previously.  You can find out about sources for those fats in those articles.  I would recommend you read them to learn about those foods.  -- Jayron 32 14:32, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

I realise prepared foods have trans fats in them but do animal fat products such as cream, cheese, butter, other whole milk dairy products and fatty meats have trans fats in them too? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:750a:500:2c14:f765:19fb:47b2 (talk) 00:15, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * See Trans_fat. Dairy has a small percent of naturally occurring trans fats. Hydrogenation inside the cow. But "by far the largest amount of trans fat consumed today is created by the processed food industry as a side effect of partially hydrogenating unsaturated plant fats (generally vegetable oils)."John Z (talk) 09:14, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Some do, in small amounts, but the specific trans fats are different than those added to some processed foods and they may not be as much of a health issue. Regardless, limiting consumption of these foods is recommended anyway due to their saturated fat content. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 11:18, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you I’m just trying to understand if the diet is recommending saturated fats in limited amounts when they mean saturated fat would they be recommending both prepared foods pizza, dairy desserts, and sausage and animal fat products cream, cheese, butter, other whole milk dairy products and fatty meats or just one of them??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:750A:500:8421:C01E:40A6:35A7 (talk) 10:42, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

They say choose foods with healthy fats limit saturated fats and avoid transfats. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:750A:500:8421:C01E:40A6:35A7 (talk) 10:44, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * They're echoing the recommendations of other bodies such as the World Health Organization (as detailed in saturated fat) to consume as little saturated fat as possible. There is strong evidence of a link between saturated fat consumption and chronic disease. Saturated fat is mostly found in animal foods (meat, cheese, etc.). --47.146.63.87 (talk) 11:18, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

I realise that but my question is Harvard school of public health when they’re saying limit consumption of saturated fats are they recommending both animal products cream, cheese, butter, other whole milk dairy products and fatty meats and prepared foods pizza, dairy desserts, and sausage or just one out of both of them?????
 * I don't know how many times we can repeat this before you believe it. The recommendation is clear and unambiguous.  Avoid saturated fat.  Avoid trans fat.  Eat healthy fats, which leaves unsaturated fat as mentioned above.  If you want to know which specific foods have those fats, read the Wikipedia articles.  If your keep asking the same questions, you're going to keep getting the same answers.-- Jayron 32 06:08, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

But it’s not saying to avoid saturated fat it’s saying to limit it. That’s why I asked. I realise that but my question is Harvard school of public health when they’re saying limit consumption of saturated fats are they recommending both animal products cream, cheese, butter, other whole milk dairy products and fatty meats and prepared foods pizza, dairy desserts, and sausage or just one out of both of them????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:750A:500:443F:E8CB:3EBD:A0A9 (talk) 06:22, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The advice suggests to limit saturated fats. It does not say to only limit them from one category of food, nor to eliminate saturated fats from sausages or pizza or whatever but limit them from cheese or butter. However they also give other advice, like that on processed foods, which also play into the consumption of such foods. Nil Einne (talk) 15:18, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 * If the above foods you list contain saturated fats or trans fats then yes, you should limit consumption of them, according to the recommendations so noted by the Harvard School of Public Health. You're getting awful worked up over the difference between limit and avoid here.  Limiting to zero is still limiting.  The deal is the HSPH recognizes that saturated fats may not be entirely avoidable so it recommends limiting here; this is different from trans fats which are mostly man-made and can be almost entirely avoided by not eating prepared foods that contain them.  In other words, some otherwise healthy foods that contain small amounts of saturated fats probably cannot be entirely avoided.  The use of "limit" in the place of "avoid" here is not an indication to "eat as much as you want".  -- Jayron 32 13:08, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps this is better question animal products cream, cheese, butter, other whole milk dairy products and fatty meats do they have trans fats in them????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:750A:500:5D12:4B2:BE0C:FA80 (talk) 11:24, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia user contributions
How do I view the contributions of users that aren't me? Primal Groudon (talk) 15:33, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Here's one way: Go to your own contribs page, select "search for contributions", put the other user ID in place of your own, and hit "search". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:44, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Another way is to go to the user's page and follow the 'User contributions' link. --CiaPan (talk) 15:58, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * That's even easier. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:01, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Tools/Navigation popups.&mdash;eric 16:25, 5 December 2019 (UTC)