Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2019 May 17

= May 17 =

Cocked Hat
The article referred to shows the hat as made famous by Napoleon however it strikes me that most other people wearing the hat wear this front to back which would be logical as this would shield your eyes from the sun (the usual use for a hat). Is it that Napoleon was wearing the hat sideways in error, as a fashion statement? Was he in fact wearing a different type of hat? Thanks Anton81.131.40.58 (talk) 09:18, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The article makes clear that we generally refer to a hat worn sideways as a bicorn and includes lots of pictures of people other than Napoleon wearing them. I'd question the premise that the usual use for a hat is to shield eyes from the sun, as hats were incredibly popular in the UK until the 1960s and we're not blessed with an abundance of sun now, let alone before the Clean Air Act. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:34, 17 May 2019 (UTC)


 * According to "What Napoleon’s hat tells us about the power of branding" by Claire Wrathall for Christie's, Napoléon wore it "In order to ensure he was instantly identifiable on the battlefield". ---Sluzzelin talk  09:39, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Seems a bit dubious, since he would have been surrounded by other chaps in very similar hats on the battlefield. Alansplodge (talk) 18:19, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't have a reference to hand but bicorne hats were generally worn side-to-side like Napoleon and Horatio Nelson. Here you can see the officers of the Prussian guard cavalry in 1806 with their side-to-side hats, provoking a war by sharpening their swords on the doorstep of the French embassy (they lost). However, the fashion changed during the first decade of the 19th century to wearing it fore-and aft, like Marshal Ney and the Duke of Wellington, requiring a slightly different style of "cocking". As far as I can tell, bicorne hats and cocked hats are one and the same thing, but merging the two articles might be a mammoth undertaking.  Alansplodge (talk) 10:43, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Here is a transitional stage; Nelson's Last Signal at Trafalgar (1805) shows Nelson with his side-by-side hat, while more junior officers have adopted the fore-and-aft style. Alansplodge (talk) 17:40, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "Napoleon ought never to be confused with Nelson, in spite of their hats being so alike; they can most easily be distinguished from one another by the fact that Nelson always stood with his arm like this, while Napoleon always stood with his arms like that." DuncanHill (talk) 19:51, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "Officers wore a cocked hat, which had evolved from the earlier 18th century tricorne, with a brim higher in the back than the front, and worn in the early years of the wars 'athwartships'; that is to say, with the points extending out over the side of the head. Over the years, however, the hat was made with brims of equal size, and was worn 'fore-an-daft'; that is, with the ends facing forward and back, though admirals in full dress tended to wear their hats in the old style for a decade after the end of the Napoleonic Wars". From Nelson’s Officers and Midshipmen (p. 25) by Gregory Fremont-Barnes. Alansplodge (talk) 18:05, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * They're not the same thing. One evolved from the other. The capelines (the raw felted floppy cone) are different, as is the shaping, as is the trim. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:53, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * My source above seems to disagree. Surely "cocked" in this instance just means that the brim is turned up? Agree that they are turned up differently, but both styles are "cocked". Alansplodge (talk) 23:33, 17 May 2019 (UTC)


 * There are distinctions in naming and style. "Corn(e)" seems to be the common term for turning up, more about the points formed at the folds, than the flaps. There are two and three fold styles.  The practical middle-class style was the tricorn, as this gives shorter flaps which flap about less (I do sometimes wear a tricorn). These are quite practical hats, especially in poor weather.
 * Around the French Revolution, the big transverse bicorne is the stylish choice. At this time they're big. Big capelines, folded to make big hats. It's a codpiece for your head. Too big to be rigid, so (unlike the English tricorn) these flaps have to be stitched to the crown and the points stitched together.  Even then the points droop, so there tends to be a virtue made of this and a style develops where the bottom edge points downwards deliberately, rather than being straight between the sides.  These are always transverse, or else you couldn't see.
 * Napoleon changes the fashions. Now this is just OR on my part as I haven't checked the few refs I have, and my milliner is ill. But he's in the awkward position of recreating a monarchy just after a revolution.  He wants the style, but not to resemble the past too much, as he knows that guillotine is still there.  Also the incroyables are still favouring the old-style of big, big transverse bicorne and no-one wants to identify with them.  So he invents something new. The bicorne becomes rigid. There's trade again with Canada, so beaver pelts are available, not just rabbit – these stiffen better. It can now sustain the weight of metallic braid.  But to do this, it has to have those points sewn rigidly in (effectively a tubular girder) and the excess fabric removed.  The raw capeline shrinks (and imported beaver's not cheap either). This is now the cocked hat, and it's radically different from the French bicorne (although still retains the name, at this time). It can be worn either way.  In France, the tradition remains for wearing it transverse. It's widely adopted, but not yet by generals (big rank, big hat). The high rank's hat at this point is a large bicorne, generously trimmed, and worn fore-and-aft. It's stiffer (beaver) and it's not big enough to suffer the drooping points problem obscuring your view.
 * Napoleon doesn't wear this. He's the boss, he doesn't need gold braid to tell anyone this. His hat is almost unique at this point in its simplicity. It's downright retro. He's not turning his hat sideways to distinguish himself from his officers, they're the ones who've gone with the weird new hats worn front-to-back.
 * The British, especially the Navy, keep the military bicorn but they shape theirs with the rims upwards in a 'bucket' (look at Nelson's) to stop them flopping. Nothing as effete as those ridiculous French and their drooping points (whatever the French do, the British military will either do the opposite and ridicule it, or quietly claim it as theirs).
 * So the cocked hat (with the narrow points) develops as a mid-ranks French hat, then is adopted, post-Waterloo, as a high-ranks hat, particularly by the British (and the Americans and Prussians in the mid-century). Andy Dingley (talk) 11:33, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Natural Defence
Hello esteemed editors, please would you assist. I have for many years been trying to find further information on the following: I recall learning in school in South Africa about one of the indigenous peoples of South Africa and how they protected themselves from warfare by establishing a strong hold on top of a mountain. I can see the picture of the hilltop in my mind's eye. It resembles a dolerite sill. I am fairly confident that this is linked to one of the 9 languages Zulu, Xhosa, Afrikaans, English, Northern Sotho, Tswana, Southern Sotho, Tsonga, Swazi, Venda, and Southern Ndebele. Now I am certain that this did not include English and Afrikaans and I recall vaguely that they were fighting either the Boers or the Zulu's.  The Mountain top only had one way up and down. They were never defeated. I know this is ambiguous, but I am begging for your assistance on this as it will really help to quell my curiosity. Thank you Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 16:29, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Perhaps Thaba Bosiu? --Viennese Waltz 16:46, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

That's amazing! Yes, well done and thank you. Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 17:23, 17 May 2019 (UTC)