Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2019 September 2

= September 2 =

Ozone, Wyoming
I'm trying to find evidence that Ozone (maybe O-zone), Wyoming existed (c.1920s). I'm fairly certain that it was near where Rock River, Wyoming is today. 2606:A000:1126:28D:C4E6:C890:C83B:1F95 (talk) 20:44, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Most of the very few references I can find in Newspapers.com are to an actress who called herself Acquanetta and claimed to have been born there. The only other reference I could find that didn't have to do with actual ozone in the state is in a 1924 article about railroad freight charges, in which it is stated that it is 1,017 miles by rail from Chicago to Ozone, Wyoming. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:46, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, there still is a railroad that runs through there. 2606:A000:1126:28D:C4E6:C890:C83B:1F95 (talk) 03:07, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Not surprising. Your best bet might be to contact a librarian at Rock River, as locals are more likely to know about it. Or else the state historical society. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:46, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * This map shows Ozone being between Buford and Cheyenne. Hack (talk) 09:34, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, about 5 miles east-southeast of Buford, and maybe 3 miles west of Granite Canyon. I-80 seems to parallel the rail line. On Google Maps, I'm not seeing any clear evidence of a town between those two locations, but there could be traces, such as a convenience store. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:26, 2 September 2019 (UTC)


 * There are a half dozen buildings N of I-80, at the intersection of 103 and the South Fork South Crow Creek. That might be what's left of the town, after it was annexed to a larger area. BTW, Granite Canyon now seems to be just called Granite. There are several other towns along the railroad tracks then which no longer exist. Perhaps they were there to service the railroad, during construction, and later providing water for steam engines, etc. The railroad seems to be gone now. SinisterLefty (talk) 19:01, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * "Seems to be gone"? That's the Union Pacific mainline!  Just eyeballing the map linked by Hack, I'd say Ozone would probably have been about here, but I can't see any trace of it in Google Maps imagery. --76.69.116.4 (talk) 00:53, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I see the railroad now, quite a bit further S than I expected. SinisterLefty (talk) 01:30, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * It seems like the Lincoln Highway crossed the railroad at Ozone. If the I-80 alignment follows the original highway, this might give a clue to the exact location. Hack (talk) 13:06, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Here's an old, abandoned concrete road that once crossed over the RR; possibly the overpass shown: [?] —2606:A000:1126:28D:B03C:4144:D0CC:6933 (talk) 18:24, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * And it's less than a mile from the location I estimated. Apparently I should've looked at a slightly larger area.  Well spotted! --76.69.116.4 (talk) 05:24, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much, especially Hack for the map! 2606:A000:1126:28D:C4E6:C890:C83B:1F95 (talk) 18:39, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * On google earth there's a fascinating 4-star "historical landmark" near where Ozone was: 2606:A000:1126:28D:C4E6:C890:C83B:1F95 (talk) 19:36, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Was that the world's first "Don't text and drive" sign? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:38, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * They apparently think it's better to distract drivers with ugly road signs than with texts. SinisterLefty (talk) 00:41, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * So the obvious self-contradictory billboard would read "Don't read billboards and drive." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:46, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Or they could send that message out in a text. :-) SinisterLefty (talk) 00:48, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Luckily, being in the middle of Wyoming, it's less of a problem than in populous areas. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:54, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Fans of Vietnamese coffee would've liked Buford. Hack (talk) 01:16, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

White after labour day
In US movies it is often stated that one should not wear white after labour day and that this is in bad taste. Why. Thanks Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 10:48, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Fashion is seasonal. That's one of the ways to construct a shibboleth framework for it, by which the fashionable can judge the non-fashionable. Also a reason for the very fashionable to be driven to consume more new fashion, for the new 'season'.
 * Broadly, "white is a summer colour", for sensible reasons of comfort. Although it's more to do with the fabric weight and garment style than the colour. (An ordering error made my new made-to-measure cream linen Summer suit appear in a dark colour instead (my tailor replaced it forthwith), but since then this dark super-lightweight suit has been one of my favourites for warm weather – it's comfortable because of the light fabric, not the shade.)
 * Here in the UK, Summer ends somewhere unknown between the end of July and the middle of October, when the last of us is no longer brave enough to risk the outdoors without waterproofs. It's unpredictable. No-one would arrange any social construct on that basis and September often (as today) has the most pleasant weather of the whole year.  But in the US, there's a clear "Last Day of Summer" holiday on Labour Day, weather and local climate regardless.
 * So for the US, fashion and calendar coincide to make the clothing change (somewhat) rigid, and also on a clearly defined date.
 * In Japan there's something similar too. Traditional houses were short on space and storage was at a premium. Clothing was traditionally grouped into a Summer and Winter wardrobe, the other of which would be packed away out of season and placed into storage, even if somewhat inaccessible. In traditional town houses, the family might have a storage building apart from the main house (and its expensive main street location). Large wheeled tansu storage chests were used for this biannual exchange, being wheeled from the storage barn to the house, repacked and then wheeled back. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:07, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Does one go naked while all one's summer clothes are being carted off and the winter clothes carted in, and vice versa? DuncanHill (talk) 13:50, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Japanese clothing is much more flexible than that, as it's layered with multiple garments and much is about how many layers one chooses to wear. However, especially for higher-class women, there was also a strong aspect of seasonally-appropriate colours. So one wouldn't archive one's entire wardrobe at a time, there were also garments which might be worn year round, or one would wear more of them when colder. Spring (in the South) or Summer garments such as yukata though could often be made of very loose weaves, almost an open mesh  (you can do this if you're layering something else too) and they'd be packed away for the Winter.  Similarly anything which was padded, quilted or lined. But simple one-layer garments, particularly hakama might be wearable almost year-round. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:02, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm confused. Why would a date in May be considered the "Last Day of summer" when the hottest months of the year still lie ahead? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:04, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Aha. USA "observes" it in September. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:05, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * My crotchety side insists that if you are talking about the American holiday, you must spell it in the American way &mdash; there is no "u" in Labor Day.
 * I'm also not sure that your original objection is necessarily removed, as in many US places, the hottest days of the year (though not "months" I suppose) frequently do fall in September (Labor Day is in very early September). Summer is not "officially" over until the fall equinox, and in coastal areas this seems about right. --Trovatore (talk) 22:31, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * However, in the Canadian cities I've lived in, Labo(u)r Day is the last day of the summer break between school years and here in Toronto it's also the last day of the CNE. That's much more important to the seasons people experience than a so-called official definition based on an equinox. --76.69.116.4 (talk) 00:57, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Meteorological Autumn in the northern hemisphere is September-October-November. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:03, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * It makes no sense for seasons, meteorological or otherwise, to be based on a politically chosen calendar. If you look at the climate section of, for example, Los Angeles, you'll see that September is warmer on the average than June. --Trovatore (talk) 05:46, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * "Politically chosen" calendar? Hmmm... Well, in any case, feel free to contact your favorite meteorologist and ask about it. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:53, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * There may also be a practical reason: In many parts of the US, summer is hot and dry, while fall (and spring) are cool and wet, and winter is cold and slushy. Thus, getting mud or slush splashed on your clothes is more likely outside of summer, and wearing white makes it much more obvious than dark colors. Also note that any "fashion rules" are regularly violated these days, so they have the status of mere suggestions. SinisterLefty (talk) 12:19, 2 September 2019 (UTC)


 * In China, the severity of a winter is defined by the number of layers of clothing needed, thus:

"There was the time when the great river froze over where it borders the western boundary of Shansi, and Communist troops from Yenan and the province of Shensi walked across the ice. It was a 'three-coat winter'."

- Alan Burgess in The Small Woman/The Inn of the Sixth Happiness

also c:User talk:Anna Frodesiak/archive2. 2A00:23C5:C708:8C00:F9BD:4AA2:E725:EC8C (talk) 14:35, 2 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Three coat days followed by Three Dog Nights ? SinisterLefty (talk) 16:29, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Largely, the traditions of what color your clothes should be follow the seasons themselves. Light follows light, dark follows dark, in autumn you wear colors like the changing leaves. Whatever.

But the "rule" in question, which is entirely too rigid to be useful to any but the most clothing-helpless, applies to suits and dresses. You shouldn't wear a white suit or white dress after Labor Day. You may always wear a white top, white scarf, etc.

And because I'm a rebel, I think I'll go put on a white suit or dress. Temerarius (talk) 17:27, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

White after labour day 2
I have a question related to the above question. US culture says it's bad to wear white after Labor Day. When does "after (the current) Labor Day" stop and "before (the next) Labor Day" begin? J I P &#124; Talk 11:24, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Memorial Day (Last Monday in May).
 * It's a little earlier in the UK, as we start from the 1st May, "Hooray, hooray, 'tis First of May. Outdoor frolicking begins today." Andy Dingley (talk) 11:38, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Probably depends on the particular circumstances.  "Labor day" in the U S is apparently today.   However, I doubt that a bride whose wedding is scheduled for next Saturday would be criticised for wearing white at the ceremony. 2A00:23C5:C708:8C00:F9BD:4AA2:E725:EC8C (talk) 11:44, 2 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Scheduling a wedding after Labor Day might make for a subtle way for brides to wear a color other than white, which, for certain brides, might elicit chuckles from all the men in attendance. SinisterLefty (talk) 12:25, 2 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Is this a joke of the "Q. When is Mother's Day? A. Nine months after Father's Day" variety? 2A00:23C5:C708:8C00:F9BD:4AA2:E725:EC8C (talk) 12:43, 2 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Here are a few links to articles about this subject. Mental floss, Time, Newsweek and Marie Claire. The "separating old elitists from new money groups" plays out again and again through history it seems. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 19:16, 2 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Is there any evidence that the "no white after Labor Day" applies to weddings? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:46, 2 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Mother's Day can never fall exactly nine months after Father's Day, but here in the U K it can get very close.  It gets as close as it can 23.7% of the time on average.   A barnstar to the first reader who can correctly identify the last occasion it happened. 2A02:C7F:C61F:E900:A839:77CD:923E:52B8 (talk) 14:48, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Being pedantic, we Britons observe Mothering Sunday which is always the fourth Sunday in Lent. Alansplodge (talk) 20:46, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Question about comic book copyrights
I just read an issue of Donald Duck pocket books from December 2015. In it there is a story written by Pat & Carol McGreal and drawn by Fecchi, where Donald Duck and Huey, Dewey and Louie find a strangely intelligent white beagle dog. They later return it to its rightful owner. The last couple of pages are an obvious reference to the classic comic strip Peanuts by Charles M. Schulz. Neither the strip, any of its characters, or Schulz, is ever referred directly by name, and the characters are drawn by Fecchi, instead of just copy-pasting Schulz's artwork. But the reference is obvious. In the Finnish translation, one of the Ducks even says "Naapuruston tenavatkin ovat outoa sakkia." - "Even the kids in the neighbourhood are a weird bunch." "Tenavat" ("kids") happens to be the Finnish name for the Peanuts comic strip.

My question here is, can they just do that without raising issues about copyright? Nowhere in the entire book is there any mention that the Peanuts characters are owned by a different, non-Disney, company. Does this fall under homage or parody or something? J I P &#124; Talk 20:59, 2 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Parody is generally exempt from copyright constraints. If it wasn't, parody would be effectively banned. SinisterLefty (talk) 23:32, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * In America, especially, there is wide latitude towards satire or parody. There was a case where Larry Flynt made some seemingly libelous statements about Jerry Falwell. The Supreme Court ruled the comments were satire, and thus protected speech. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:48, 2 September 2019 (UTC)


 * But the thing here is, the Donald Duck comic doesn't make fun of Peanuts. Instead, it seems to be an honest homage. Only that in the entire book, it is never explicitly mentioned anywhere that these particular characters are from a different, non-Disney, comic strip. J I P  &#124; Talk 00:08, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Parody, satire, and homage are all entirely protected equally. Whether or not you find it "funny" is not what is at issue.  According to U.S. intellectual property law, the fair use doctrine allows usages such as this explicitly.  -- Jayron 32 01:11, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

I'd direct you to TechDirt's coverage of lawsuits and legal threats from the estate of Dr. Seuss against derivative works, on allegations of both trademark and copyright violations. Courts have been explicitly asked whether copying someone else's style is fair use. I particularly like this line from a recent ruling, "there is no such thing as a trademark in an artistic style." It goes on. However, plenty of people would rather not have to hire a lawyer and simply cave. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:38, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The Donald Duck comic is not copying the artistic style of Peanuts, it's directly copying the characters, however redrawn by Fecchi instead of being direct carbon copies of Schulz's original artwork. J I P  &#124; Talk 08:42, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, you're right. It somehow hadn't clicked that this situation is essentially reversed from the one I had cited. Trademarks on fictional characters are weird. The only general rule I was ever able to surmise is that Disney always wins. We do have List of United States Supreme Court trademark case law, and perhaps you could find parallels in there, at least insofar as how a defendant might argue against specific types of accusations. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Have we ruled out that maybe Disney contacted peanuts and got permission? If it is an homage, it is possible they would say yes, even if technically permission was not required. --Lgriot (talk) 13:02, 3 September 2019 (UTC)


 * In the world of comic strips and comic books, clear borrowings of this type - homages - are considered an honour. It's a form of flattery and artists who do it effectively are rarely taken to task for it, either through courts (for reasons stated above) or fandom. Artists and writers generally consider them to be a kind of salute. There are two broad categories of exceptions, neither of which seem to apply here: 1) where the borrower is attempting to confuse buyers or otherwise "ride the coat-tails" of the original artists and 2) where the purpose of the copying is not to honour the original, but to steal some of the artistry. In this case, consumers were both well aware of the situation and not confused about what they were buying. See Swipe (comics) for more. Matt Deres (talk) 18:22, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
 * For some examples of much more extensive parodies and offshoots, see Fearless Fosdick and The Katzenjammer Kids. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:00, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Canadian Book of the Road By CAA and Reader's Digest (First Edition)
How can I find out if this book is still being reprinted today? -- Thegooduser  Life Begins With a Smile :)  🍁 23:54, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Does the CAA have a "contact us" option on its website? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:16, 3 September 2019 (UTC)