Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2020 August 16

= August 16 =

House of Commons and House of Lords
In the UK, both the House of Commons and the House of Lords meet at the same building, the Westminster Palace. They apparently have separate convention rooms. Where are these rooms physically located in the building? Are they on the same floor or on different floors? J I P &#124; Talk 21:51, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Try Palace_of_Westminster, there's even a floor plan. --Wrongfilter (talk) 22:00, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, the two chambers are at opposite ends of a long corridor, with the Central Lobby in the middle. This video shows how at the State Opening of Parliament, (at about 3 minutes in) an official called Black Rod is sent to bring the Members of the House of Commons to the House of Lords to hear the speech from the throne, but has the doors ceremonially slammed in her face and has to knock on the door to be allowed in. Alansplodge (talk) 15:23, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the replies. The two houses are called alahuone (House of Commons, literally "lower room") and ylähuone (House of Lords, literally "upper room") in Finnish, so I was expecting the meeting rooms to be situated physically on top of each other. J I P  &#124; Talk 16:32, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * In this case, the common terms "upper" and "lower" in reference to Parliament comes from upper class (i.e. nobility) and lower class (i.e. commoners). By analogy, the "upper house" in most such bodies is the one with the more restrictive membership, even if such societies don't place "class" based restrictions on participation.  -- Jayron 32 16:38, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you have a reference for your first sentence? I'm afraid I find it very implausible. From a linguistic point of view, Merriam-Webster records "upper house" as predating "upper class" by several centuries. And in any event, from its formation in the Middle Ages until relatively recently, the House of Commons was filled almost entirely with what we would now call "upper class" people. They might not have been quite as exalted as the peers in the House of Lords, but they were definitely wealthy landowners, including knights and baronets, and indeed many of them were direct family members of those in the Lords. In fact, some were Scottish or Irish peers whose titles did not grant automatic seats in the Lords. They certainly weren't "lower class". Until more recent reforms, the House of Commons was the house of the landed gentry, not the house of the poor. Proteus (Talk) 18:32, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Proteus, I can't find an exact reference, but the Inquest Act 1267 refers to Parliament as "the more discreet Men of the Realm being called together, as well of the higher as of the lower Estate". This refers to the Estates of the realm, so User:Jayron32 was on the right track, if not actually correct. Note that "upper" and "lower" chambers are the English language terms used for all bicameral legislatures; see this document from the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance.  Alansplodge (talk) 18:36, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Why does the Black Rod have to have the door ceremonially slammed in his/her face and have to knock? J I P  &#124; Talk 23:15, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * According to our article, it is to symbolize the Commons' independence of the Sovereign (as the Rod is carrying a horcrux imbued with the monarch). --Lambiam 06:35, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * For more history of ceremonial rods meant to represent monarchs, see Sceptre. -- Jayron 32 11:53, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Concur. You need to read up on the English Civil War, The Protectorate, and the Glorious Revolution. That's why the Commons, despite being the lower house, is now the more powerful house of the two.  The sovereign implicitly understands that if she doesn't follow the constitutional convention of allowing the commoners to set national policy, pass laws, and advise her on how to run her government, then they might decide again they don't need a monarch after all and try to start another Protectorate. --Coolcaesar (talk) 06:42, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * User:JIP, the door slamming commemorates the attempt of King Charles I to arrest the Five Members by forcing his way into the House of Commons in 1642. The speaker refused to say where the Five had gone, saying "I have neither eyes to see nor tongue to speak in this place but as this House is pleased to direct me". This is taken as the first assertion of parliamentary independence from the monarchy; Black Rod is the monarch's representative and cannot enter the House of Commons without an invitation, which he or she requests by knocking on the door. Alansplodge (talk) 18:10, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You can take a virtual tour of the building. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:29, 18 August 2020 (UTC)