Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2020 June 12

= June 12 =

Palais de Justice, Brussels
In the first part of the article, it says "The total cost of the construction, land and furnishings was somewhere in the region of 45 million Belgian francs." Unless you convert this into current dollars or euros, it's quite useless to mention it. Ericdec85 (talk) 06:20, 12 June 2020 (UTC)


 * This is the reference desk. You can make that useful edit yourself. Otherwise the place to discuss improvements to an article is on its talk page. In this case at Talk:Palais de Justice, Brussels.--Shantavira|feed me 10:33, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * By the way, someone added "approximately 1.1 million Euro", which is just as meaningless: today a large one family home with pool and 2nd flat in the basement will cost one million Euro, while this palace would cost today more like 150, 300 or even 500 million Euro if it is a state building project. Probably the 45 million BEF in the article are BEF from 1870, so you can't just convert them to Euro with an online converter 2003:F5:6F06:DF00:41D2:1EBA:1630:84C5 (talk) 19:52, 12 June 2020 (UTC) Marco PB
 * You're right; I've removed that addition. --76.71.5.208 (talk) 04:24, 13 June 2020 (UTC)


 * What about converting the cost into its Big Mac equivalent? --Lambiam 14:49, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * All we need is a reference for the price of a Big Mac in Belgium in 1870. —Tamfang (talk) 00:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * When the BF was introduced, by law one franc was 5 gram of silver with a fineness of 0.90. Shortly before the PdJ was built, Belgian joined the Latin Monetary Union, which maintained 0.90 fine (at least, for minting the 5 franc coin). So 45 million BF would have been equivalent to the 1883 value of 225 million gram (225 metric tons) of silver 0.90 fine. If the data given here are correct (search for " 1792-1999 Yearly Averages", check the box and press "View Data"), the 1883 value was 1.110/5.218-th of the 1999 value. And this chart gives a $5.22 quote for the "average closing price" per ounce in 1999. That would be troy ounces. 25 ton = 7,233,918 troy oz, so we get 7233918 × 1.110/5.218 × $5.22 = (half a percent more than) $8,000,000 in 1999. But I'm not sure that using 1.110/5.218 for the 1883–1999 value comparison is meaningful; does this compare "timeless" value, or prices in 1883 currency with prices in 1999 currency? --Lambiam 10:22, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I take (metaphorically) 225 million gram silver multiplied by 0.3 to 0.5 EUR/g of today and get 67.5 to 112.5 million EUR of today (2020). This is very cheap for a large state building project (here tipically several 100 million EUR as a cost estimate before go-ahead and twice to four times that estimate after the last bill paid). But then were the wages proportionally much lower than today I think. Anyway: e.g. [] the 1885 daily average for a carpenter was $1.55 in Paris and $0.77 in Brussels (and $1.89 in Richmond, VA). Today in Germany the minimum hourly wages are 9.35 EUR, that is some 75 EUR per day (carpenter: average 14 EUR/h, 112 EUR per day). So we need now only to find out what you could buy with 77 cents in Brussels in 1885? 2003:F5:6F09:F000:A96F:DD8E:5BA2:8FE4 (talk) 13:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC) Marco PB


 * In fact it is the conversion to euros that is usually useless and misinformative, since it begs the question of how to estimate for inflation: GDP, mean salary, mean low-income worker's wage, consumer prices etc. The economy was different then, income inequality was different, standards of living were vastly different. All these inflation adjusting methods give estimates differing sometimes by multiple orders of magnitude. Which of it gives a less useless number? Which did the author use? With foreign currencies like dollars it's even worse: do you convert to the dollar (or its predecessor) back in 1880s and use dollar's inflation, or do you use Belgian inflation and convert to dollar today? This is often not mentioned on Wikipedia. Gold and silver are almost as useless as dollars since they've also suffered inflation.
 * If you can compare it to something contemporary of similar value, the reader might be able to relate to something, so a conversion would be useful. On the other hand, while a reader who reads "45 million francs" and has some insight into 19th century Belgium might be able to relate this to some other figure he knows, a reader who reads "1.3 million USD today" is just going to walk away with a completely wrong number (and typically be uneducated enough to spread it without qualification). 93.136.207.230 (talk) 19:01, 13 June 2020 (UTC)