Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2020 June 24

= June 24 =

Look to the Lady (Margery Allingham)
I have read this story, and am puzzled by the title. Can anyone explain it to me? Thanks. 192.80.104.147 (talk) 02:05, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Courtesy link: Look to the Lady. The title is originally a line from Shakespeare's Macbeth (Act 2, scene 3): Macbeth has been giving a gruesome (and lying) account to Macduff explaining why he killed the murdered King Duncan's sleeping guards before they could be questioned, Lady Macbeth (who had framed them for the murder) feigns distress, and Macduff says "Look to the Lady," i.e. "Take care of the Lady."
 * It's a while since I read the novel, and I don't recall an obvious reason for using this line as the title. By warping Shakespeare's meaning somewhat it could be read as indicating that a lady should be considered as a suspect in the ongoing plot to steal a valuable heirloom (which indeed proves to be the case). I'll give it a quick skim and add to this reply if I find anything more concrete.
 * [Edited to add] I've now re-read the book (closely, not a skim: I'd forgotten how good, and amusing, it is), and found no reason for the title beyond the one I suggested above – an audacious theft is known to be being planned by a so-far unidentified organiser who is initially assumed to be a man (this being the 1920s), but who eventually proves to be a woman.
 * There are other female protagonists, who at times are placed in stressful situations, but none of these occasions appear sufficiently pertinent as to prompt the title. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.203.119.123 (talk) 02:27, 24 June 2020 (UTC)


 * It doesn't appear in our long, long List of titles of works taken from Shakespeare as far as I can see. Any takers? Alansplodge (talk) 17:36, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, done. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.203.119.123 (talk) 21:42, 24 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Admittedly, I don't know much about this particular novel, but I'm curious to know if there is a citation for the title being taken from Shakespeare. Based on the above discussion, it doesn't seem to fit well. When I first saw the title, I thought it seemed like an allusion to, or an attempt at translating, Cherchez la femme. Mrs. Allingham is not unfamiliar with the phrase, chapter 26 of her The Crime at Black Dudley (another Albert Campion detective novel, written before this one in 1929) is called "Cherchez la Femme".--William Thweatt TalkContribs 21:13, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Cherchez la femme translates as "Look for the lady." It is inconceivable that Margery Allingham – the daughter of literary parents, well educated, an active writer and playwright whilst still a child, a formal student of drama, and a professional novelist since 1923 – would in 1930 at the age of 26 not both understand the French phrase and be familiar with Macbeth. Hell, I myself recognised the title instantly from reading the play at age 14 (49 years ago).
 * [Edited to add] Even if one were to assume a blind spot on Allingham's part, an author does not title and publish a book in isolation. It would have been routine procedure for her editor(s) and publicists at her publisher, the long-established Jarrolds, to discuss the meaning and suitability of the title with her (I speak as a former book editor myself), and they would hardly have overlooked an accidental Shakespeare quote. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.56.20 (talk) 04:55, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Taler and Kreuzer?
I was just reading a Donald Duck pocket book in German and realised that where the Finnish translations use the Euro as the currency in the dialogue, the German translations use "Taler" and "Kreuzer" (where 1 Taler = 100 Kreuzer). Where do these names come from? Do they come from some kind of real active or historical currency? J I P &#124; Talk 14:23, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thaler (cognate with Dollar), Kreuzer. The currency was introduced early in the German translation (possibly by Erika Fuchs) and the intention was presumably to not associate Entenhausen/Duckburg with any real place. --Wrongfilter (talk) 14:35, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * For some time in history, the imperial t(h)aler was worth 90 kreuzer, a reasonably close approximation of the decimal cent(ime). Cheers ⌘  hugarheimur 16:01, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

How do I say that in English?
Imagine that John was the first man to go to space then Jim and then John again. There were 2 people who went to space but technically 3 people were launched. So, I can say that John was the first individual, Jim was the second one. But there were 3 what?, 3 humans? 3 times people? How do I say that? Ericdec85 (talk) 15:18, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Possibly there were there travels or flights by man to space? If your 'space' is some smaller place than your example suggets and it can be put in passive, it might have been visited there times.
 * Anyway, the Language RD could be a better place for your question. --CiaPan (talk) 15:29, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Three manned launches.--WaltCip- (BLM!Resist The Orange One)  16:21, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Doesn't work if (in this hypothetical case) Jim and John were a 2-man crew. In the real history of spaceflight, several people have launched multiple times in crews varying from one to several. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.203.119.123 (talk) 21:54, 24 June 2020 (UTC)


 * As far as I'm aware there is no clean uniform solution to this. Donald Trump is counted as the 45th US president, but he's one of only 44 people who have ever been president of the US, because Grover Cleveland is conventionally counted twice.  This is not the only logical solution or the only one consistent with how the English language behaves more generally, but it's the almost universal convention.  In a bad half-inning of baseball for the fielding side, you might say ten men batted, but they're actually only nine distinct individuals.  See also multiset. --Trovatore (talk) 16:56, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with this. It is not grammatically or even stylistically incorrect to say that "John was the first and third man in space". However, when it comes to manned spaceflight, history tends to only worry about who did something first, so you don't often see sentences like that anyway. Many people remember Neil Armstrong as the first man on the Moon, or even Buzz Aldrin as the second, but they tend not to reminisce about Alan Bean or Charles Duke in that sense, unless they're an avid follower of that sort of thing.--WaltCip- (BLM!Resist The Orange One)  18:14, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If you have no issue with saying that together they spent 120 man-hours in space, then you might say that these man-hours were spent in 3 man-trips. --Lambiam 21:36, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Incidentally, the same issue arises in another context. People often say things like "the city's transit system carries 10,000,000 passengers every year", but nobody expects this to mean that there were 10,000,000 different passengers; it's entirely possible that there were only 25,000 or 50,000, but they averaged 100 or 200 round trips per year. The important statistic is really the number of passenger-trips. --76.71.5.208 (talk) 00:34, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Interior of The Cock
The article The Cock says that photography is forbidden inside the bar. How, then, was this picture, which clearly shows clients, taken? J I P &#124; Talk 23:09, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Murder is forbidden, but people are killed all the time. Forbidding actions doesn't actually prevent them. --Nricardo (talk) 23:33, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I was going to write: Flash photography is forbidden in lots of places, for example in the Catacombs of Rome or in the Casa del Menandro. I've witnessed people ignoring this rule at both places, on multiple occasions. But, anyway, you could try asking the photographer David Shankbone (The article links to his homepage too. User:David Shankbone hasn't been active at en.wp for a while). ---Sluzzelin talk  23:47, 24 June 2020 (UTC)