Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2021 April 11

= April 11 =

Should Affenpinschers be classified as a rare/endangered breed? Plus, why are they called pinschers, when they dont have any of those characteristics?
(Note: this is only for people who know a lot about Affenpinschers)

1. On Akc’s popularity rank, Affenpinschers rank 148 out of 197, definitely meaning that they’re rare/endangered.

2. Should affenpinschers be classified as a pinscher? The other pinschers have a slender body, pointed ears, a long snout, and are usually Black and Tan. The affenpinscher shares none of these characteristics, and looks more like a black wire-hared pug

Answermeplease11 (talk) 20:12, 11 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I think it likely that none of the volunteers who habitually answer here at the Reference Desks "know a lot about Affenpinschers," and will be discouraged by your stricture from researching the subject. (Between us, we don't know about a lot of things: we are able to answer queries not because we know about everything, but because we know how to look novel topics up, grasp them quickly, and extract the necessary information: I used to do it for a living.)
 * Since you insist on an expert, I won't attempt to delve deeply into the subject, but for what it's worth, my initial impression is that the classification of dog breeds by the American Kennel Club (presuming that's what you meant) and similar organisations is based on a mixture of heredity (what a breed is descended from), function (what it is – or used to be – used for) and form (what it looks like and how it behaves). You would probably have to ask the AKC directly why they choose to classify Affenpinschers as pinschers, but the name suggests that they have been thought of as such since their 17th century origins.
 * With regard to rarity; is the AKC's popularity ranking based on all dogs worldwide, or only on American-registered dogs? Perhaps this breed is fairly popular in, say, North-West Europe (where it originates) and so, while evidently rarer than many breeds, is not endangered on a global basis. We can only describe them in the article (as you have suggested on its Talk page) as "endangered" if this has been stated in a published Reliable source to which it can be cited: deducing for ourselves that this is so would be original research, which is not allowed in Wikipedia. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.219.35.136 (talk) 00:12, 12 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The German Wikipedia article, de:Affenpinscher says:
 * "Mit 33 Welpen, die im Jahr 2017 im Verband für das Deutsche Hundewesen geworfen wurden (19 im Jahr 2016), gehört der Affenpinscher zu den seltenen Rassen" or...
 * "With 33 puppies thrown [= born?] in 2017 (19 in 2016) in the German kennel club, the Affenpinscher belongs to a rare breed" (my dodgy translation).
 * It's referenced to VDH Welpenstatistik. Alansplodge (talk) 11:47, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * One of the meanings of the German verb werfen is "to give birth", used only for non-human mammals, and preferentially (but not exclusively) for species that typically give birth to a litter. --Lambiam 14:03, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Aha! It certainly foxed Bing Translate. Alansplodge (talk) 14:09, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Despite the fact that 'to whelp' is also a respectable English verb dating back to Old English. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.219.35.136 (talk) 19:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, den seltenen Rassen is plural: "belongs to the rare breeds", fitting because the sense of der Affenpinscher here is the breed. In the singular, the sentence would have been gehört zu einer seltenen Rasse, which is what one would expect when discusssing an individual Affenpinscher. --Lambiam 17:10, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The breed description on the website of the Verband für das Deutsche Hundewesen says this about the origin of the breed: Bis 1896 gab es nur Zwergpinscher. Erst allmählich erfolgte die Unterscheidung zwischen dem Affenpinscher und dem kurzhaarigen Zwergpinscher. ("Until 1896 there were only Miniature Pinschers. The distinction between the Affenpinscher and the short-haired Miniature Pinscher developed only gradually.") A 1901 German book Das Buch vom gesunden und kranken Hunde (The book of healthy and sick dogs) writes: Wenn man weiss, dass ein „Affenpinscher“ ein „rauhhaariger deutscher Zwergpinscher“ ist, so wird selbstverständlich nur ersteren Namen anwenden, ob man dann immer verstanden wird, ist eine andere Sache. ("If one knows that an 'Affenpinscher' is a 'rough-haired German Miniature Pinscher', then naturally only the first name will be used; whether one is then always understood is another matter.") Apparently, the name was then not yet well known. Further on, in a more detailed description, the book repeats the characterization as a miniature version of a rough-haired pinscher and states that the breed, although not yet commonly bred to strict standards, is an old and popularly beloved and well-known form. --Lambiam 14:47, 12 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Well done, all! So presumably we can conclude that 1) The Affenpinscher can be described as "rare" but not "endangered" (not sure where that would be "classified" rather than just stated); and 2) they are definitely a breed of (miniature) pinscher.
 * Perhaps would now like to incorporate this information into the article, citing it to the sources above (along with anything else of interest in them), despite the fact that none of us (I presume) "know a lot about affenpinschers?" {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.219.35.136 (talk) 19:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, we do now. Alansplodge (talk) 22:11, 12 April 2021 (UTC)