Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2022 June 13

= June 13 =

Is there some way to improve on this or am I just stuck?
My question relates to my issues and writing, more specifically writing articles on Wikipedia. An editor who I respect let me know that my writing in articles comes across as stilted and to write how I would speak, but I already do. With Asperger syndrome and stilted speech, I don't know if there are any ways to fix the issue. I sometimes feel like giving up on writing because of it. I have already improved with other things such as giving eye contact. I probably should ping the editor since it relates to what they said. SL93 (talk) 07:59, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * There are lots of things to do apart from writing prose. So you do not need to be stuck. You can do copyediting, (Typo Team/moss) formatting messes, review others work (eg new pages, GA, FA, DYK). PS I have not looked at your article writing! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:12, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Now I see you have done a lot of DYK work. So that means that your writing is good enough to get pages into Wikipedia. Even if your style does not change, don't stress about it, as you can still write something. Criticism does not mean that you need to stop. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:15, 13 June 2022 (UTC)


 * [Edit conflicts] I would disagree with that editor that this is a problem.
 * Firstly, this is an international Encyclopaedia, where a formal tone, which might be seen by some as 'dry' and 'stilted', is actually preferred, and 'colloquial' style is usually inappropriate and often ambiguous and/or too regionally parochial.
 * Secondly, your style seems very similar to my own (which owes much to studying Latin, especially Julius Caesar's prose, at school). If tested, I might register as near the lower end of the autism spectrum (some people now deprecate the older description because of Dr Asberger's history), but it has never been problematic (in a career that has included non-fiction writing and editing), and no-one has complained about my natural style (which I'm using now, but could vary to others if I made a conscious effort).
 * Thirdly, the prose style of an already-written piece is a trivially easy thing to address, for others if not oneself. Wikipedia is a collaborative project: what most matters is accurately summarising 'the facts' (extracted from Reliable sources); someone else can always tweak the prose style later if they think it can be improved.
 * In short, my advice would be to carry on as you are without worrying about this non-problem. From what I can see, your 'critic' started working on Wikipedia in 2017, whereas you have been an active and valuable contributor since 2009 – you are the more experienced Wikipedian. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.131.154 (talk) 09:19, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Maybe I was a bit too depressed when I wrote this here although I would like to try to improve at some point. I did have a few GAs and a FA, but they needed heavy copy-edits from others. I would like to make it clear that I do respect theleekycauldron's thoughts which is why is I tagged them here. Others have told me the same thing, but it isn't helpful that I don't remember their usernames. Thanks for the words, both of you. Theleekycauldron did suggest that I just continue on as well. SL93 (talk) 09:22, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Your writing in this section seems fine. I've seen a lot worse (including from myself from time to time). Just do the best you can, and if someone wants to improve any wording, they can do so. That's what collaboration is about! --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:18, 13 June 2022 (UTC)


 * There are three ways to improve your composition: write more, read more, and learn new skills. To break it down further: write more articles on Wikipedia or elsewhere, read more articles and books by writers you enjoy and want to emulate, and learn new writing skills from experts.  For the last tip, check out Hacker News.  Scroll down to the bottom of the site and enter variations on your chosen search terms, such as "improve writing", and then sort by recent.  A lot of the submitted links on that site come from people on the autism spectrum. Two final thoughts: it’s probably a myth that people on the spectrum write poorly.  I’ve personally found their writing to be professional, engaging, and easy to read.  So, like others have said up above, you might have an advantage in this environment.  Lastly, check out Leidy Klotz and his book Subtract: The Untapped Science of Less (2021).  The concept of subtraction holds true for writing.  When in doubt, omit needless words. There is a fundamental beauty to brevity that underpins everything we consider important.  Say less whenever possible, and you can’t go wrong. Viriditas (talk) 07:52, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Mel Gibson's accent
Is Mel Gibson's normal accent American or Australian? 86.131.245.130 (talk) 18:04, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * On talk shows, he talks like the American he is. --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:35, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

According to our article, Gibson moved to Australia when he was 12. I can definitely hear aspects of Strine in his [otherwise American] voice, which is what you'd probably expect for someone with his life history, but this is something we may struggle to give you a reference for. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 09:07, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
 * According to Mad Max (film), before release in the US, "the original Australian dialogue was redubbed by American voice actors", presumeably including Gibson. Alansplodge (talk) 13:28, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The article goes on to say "The only dubbing exceptions were the voice of the singer in the Sugartown Cabaret (played by Robina Chaffey), the voice of Charlie (played by John Ley) through the mechanical voice box, and Officer Jim Goose (Steve Bisley), singing as he drives a truck before being ambushed." but the article suggests the problem was the Aussie vocab, more than the accent. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 15:38, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

So his normal accent is...American? 86.131.245.130 (talk) 20:01, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
 * As explained above, it's primarily American but with dash of Australian. It's not a pure accent. Only someone with his life history would have it. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:16, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Because they have been heavily exposed to it from a very young age via TV and other media, most Australian actors can do a passable impression of an American accent. (The reverse is definitely not the case.) People like Gibson probably do it without thinking. HiLo48 (talk) 22:22, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

And does he speak his native American with everyone but Australian in Australia, with Australian people, in Australian films or films set in Australia? 86.131.245.130 (talk) 22:23, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
 * He's never tried to disguise the American component of his accent. From his earliest movies (Tim, Mad Max, Gallipoli etc) anyone who'd never heard of him (which was most everybody at the time) knew without being told that this was someone who wasn't an entirely home-grown Aussie. He was still resident in Australia back then, and to us he was "the Australian actor Mel Gibson". Later, when he was a bad boy, he morphed into "the American actor Mel Gibson". We retain the right to decide what nationality our idols and ex-idols have. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:36, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It seems to be fairly easy, at least for a trained actor, to learn to flatten out any "English accent" they might have. Some that come to mind are Peter Sellers, Hugh Laurie, Nicole Kidman and Freddie Highmore. --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:39, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * BTW, Nicole Kidman is Australian and was was born in Hawaii. Alansplodge (talk) 14:28, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes. Hence the quotes around "English accent". --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:25, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * A lady who appeared in EastEnders has taken a part in Coronation Street which requires her to have a northern accent, and she reports she's handling it rather well. 2A00:23C5:C719:7201:1A:5EB9:69D5:D178 (talk) 18:15, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

According to IMDB Goofs: Factual errors, when he played the voice of John Smith for the Disney film Pocahontas, he spoke in an Australian-American accent when Smith should be English. And when playing the American rooster Rocky in Chicken Run, one of the English hens Bunty said "I'm not even certain he was American". According to IMDB trivia, this is a joke at Mel Gibson's expense. A reference to the common misconception that Gibson is actually Australian. (Although he was born in the U.S. and didn't move to Australia until he was 12, the belief persists, especially in the UK, that he's Australian.) 86.131.245.130 (talk) 19:05, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

John Barrowman's accent
Is John Barrowman's normal accent Scottish or American? 86.131.245.130 (talk) 18:06, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * If he is speaking with his normal voice here, it is not American. --Lambiam 22:26, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * That's a pretty good Glasgow accent, though you can tell it has had other influences. Barrowman has said that he speaks Scottish with Scottish people and American with everyone else. That's probably his normal. What the voice in his head sounds like when he's on his own is anyone's guess. -- zzuuzz (talk) 00:13, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

So his normal accent is...Scottish? 86.131.245.130 (talk) 19:02, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes. The interviewer Lorraine Kelly is a scotswoman whose conversational tone and accent reflect her Glasgow origin, with which Barrowman interacts easily. Philvoids (talk) 14:45, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

And he speaks American with everyone but his native Scottish with Scots? 86.131.245.130 (talk) 19:57, 15 June 2022 (UTC)


 * “People differ a lot in how susceptible their accents are to change over months -- we can think of "changers" and "non-changers," Sonderegger says. “This might help explain why some people never 'lose' their accent when they move to a new place, while other people's accents change so completely that people are surprised to learn where they are originally from.”
 * See also Why do our accents change when we live overseas?.
 * I think that the best we can say is that his native accent is Glaswegian Scottish. Alansplodge (talk) 11:02, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Does he speak American because he likes being American and because American kids had mocked his Scottish? 86.131.245.130 (talk) 22:22, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
 * English football manager Steve McClaren, who moved to the Netherlands to manage FC Twente, famously gave an interview to a local TV station speaking English with a Dutch accent. Although ridiculed by the British press, linguists pointed out that adopting the local accent aids comprehension and assimilation. Alansplodge (talk) 13:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)