Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2022 June 23

= June 23 =

The color purple and sexuality
Why are the colors of mauve and lavender historically associated with homosexuality? Viriditas (talk) 09:29, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Per Lavender (color), the use of lavender (and mauve earlier) to reference homosexuality simply came about because it was considered a feminine color, and effeminate gay men were the common stereotype of homosexuality.  Pinguinn     🐧   09:54, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, but there doesn’t seem to be an actual explanation in those articles, just assertions that shades of purple were considered gay. It doesn’t really answer my question.  For example, historically (at least within the last century), men who wear the color pink are considered wealthy and high class, but not gay.  So, again, why lighter shades of purple? It seems arbitrary to me.  Also, why are lighter shades of purple considered feminine but not pink, which is easily seen as masculine in the context of wealth or strength? It’s all so very confusing to me.  Did someone in 1643 say, "light shades of purple are gay, and that’s the way it is"?  I think it’s a very strange association.  My guess is that there’s a myth, legend, or story behind it associated with someone who was accused of being homosexual, and that there’s a historian somewhere who figured it out. Viriditas (talk) 10:09, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * This and this seem to pin it on the Aestheticism movement, particularly Oscar Wilde, who was known for wearing lavender. He and other Aesthetes were considered effeminate, and Wilde's famous prosecution for being gay likely confirmed the connection.  Pinguinn     🐧   10:34, 23 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Colour Studies: A broad spectrum (p. 162) says:
 * ..."the use of lavender to mean effeminate is first recorded as early as 1928 (OED)... pink with the sense "homosexual" entered the lexicon in 1950... (OED pink adjective 2.9)".
 * However, Textiles and Gender in Antiquity (p. 232) says that "pinkish-lavender" was "popular in the female wardrobe" during the Hellenistic period.
 * See also Languages and Cultures in Contrast and Comparison (p. 225) for some theories.
 * Alansplodge (talk) 10:50, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I think the origin is not entirely clear. One theory offered is that "pink is for girls, blue is for boys, so the color in between, lavender, is for homosexuals." It is not obvious that the epithet "lavender" in "Lavender Lads" and "Lavender Scare" originally referred to the pastel colour; it might also be to a predilection for the flower or its scent. In any case, while one source states the use of lavender to mean "effeminate" is first recorded as early as 1928 (OED), there is this quote from an 1897 book: "Obanjo evidently thought him too much of a lavender-kid-glove gentleman to deal with bush trade". Here, "kid-glove" is a glove made of kid leather, while "lavender" apparently stands for the colour; the whole is a dogwhistle epithet like "latte-sipping" today. --Lambiam 11:02, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I live in a fantasy world, but I’ve never once heard the term "latte-sipping" used in normal discourse. It seems like an invented term unique to right wing media.  And let me tell you, I’ve sipped my fair share of lattes in San Francisco and SoCal. Viriditas (talk) 08:24, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you don't hang out with the MAGA crowd and don't listen 24/7 to Fodx News – or do you rule this out because it is not "normal discourse"?
 * Bill O'Reilly: "Especially if you're a sushi eating, latte drinking New Yorker."
 * Neil Cavuto: "They're afraid they might be stuck with latte-sipping losers who once in the job, do little on the job."
 * Greg Gutfeld: "There was a disinformation campaign all right but the culprits weren't chugging vodka in Moscow, they were sipping lattes in Silicon Valley."
 * --Lambiam 22:37, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Is extreme, right wing rhetoric on Fox News "normal" discourse? Again, outside of fringe right wing discourse, I’ve never heard the term "latte sipping" or "latte drinking" used in this way by anyone in public.  I think this is an artificial term created to disparage one political side, and has zero currency.  Just my opinion.  Also, it’s the highest form of hypocrisy when we look at the reality of what the most extreme conservatives eat and drink.  The inaugural dinner party of one of the most conservative and religious groups in the US, the Council for National Policy, featured "a spread of Peking duck, lobster, sushi and piña coladas served in coconuts" during their May 1981 event.  Whatever the right accuses the left of, you can be sure it’s projection on a grand scale.  Although the article doesn’t mention it, would you like to bet that lattes were served to the almost 200 guests at the party?  Viriditas (talk) 02:53, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Oscar Wilde's other colour-related thing was the green carnation. He often wore one in his lapel. There's more info on this and lavender @ LGBT symbols. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  11:41, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * However he didn't originate this; he was emulating the painter James Whistler, whom he admired. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.73.76 (talk) 18:49, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Here it is stated that Wilde and friends adopted the green carnation in reaction to the publication of The Green Carnation, a satirical roman à clef lampooning Wilde's attitude to life, described as "to dare to live as one wishes to live, not as the middle-classes wish one to live". --Lambiam 10:25, 24 June 2022 (UTC)


 * BTW, this article says that the idea of pink for girls and blue for boys dates only from the 1940s and quotes magazine articles from the 1920s recommending the other way about, pink for boys and blue for girls. Alansplodge (talk) 15:17, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
 * However, our article Gendered associations of pink and blue states that this assertion of a 1940 pink–blue reversal is likely to have been a misunderstanding of earlier reporting. In reality, both systems coexisted earlier. See also List of historical sources for pink and blue as gender signifiers. --Lambiam 19:53, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Lavender and hormones
Lavender seems to cause gynecomastia. I undid this edit blaming it on "genetic anomaly and tainted lavender via pesticides", because there was no source supplied by the IP editor. Perhaps the editor was an essential oil merchant or a lavender farmer, attempting to change perceptions? But AGF, could a source be found? Card Zero (talk) 11:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I'd guess that editor was reading this; it's the only reference I see to "genetic anomaly". --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 17:04, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Eh, OK. Looks like there's two studies, 2007 and 2018, and neither determined anything about genetic predisposition (or not), and neither mentions pesticides at all. The article says "recommends caution ... because of possible hormonal effects", and I don't think it needs to elaborate about the possible absence of hormonal effects. Card Zero  (talk) 19:04, 23 June 2022 (UTC)