Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2022 May 11

= May 11 =

French death records
I would be grateful if a user could please inform me where I can find French death records between the years 1945 to 1970. Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 08:13, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * This seems to have some suggestions. -- Jayron 32 12:10, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you Jayron for your prompt reply which I appreciate. However the link you gave me only gives the death records from 1970 onwards. I also require death records between the years 1945 to 1970. I would therefore be grateful if you could please suggest where I can find these records. Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 08:06, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely sure; such records may or may not be available freely online. I haven't looked to deeply at that search, but some countries may restrict access to certain records before a certain time-frame, such as 100 years, in order to protect the privacy of individuals or their close relatives.  The U.S. Census, for example, will not release individual census records (stuff like names, addresses, ages, etc.) for 72 years.  France may or may not have similar privacy laws for records of a certain age.  -- Jayron 32 15:07, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Jayron once again for your help and research which I appreciate. I have found that French death records for the years 1970 to 2018 are freely available for all on the internet. It would therefore seem strange if the death records for the years 1945 to 1970, which are older records, are not available. I would therefore be grateful if you could please assist me to locate them. Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 08:21, 13 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The register from 1970 onward is called Fichier des personnes décédées. The French state's commission in charge of questions related to freedom of information [...] argued that the register was a set of administrative documents not containing any personal data in need of protection, since the persons concerned were not alive anymore. This explains nothing about records prior to 1970, and helps you very little. I searched for "Fichier des personnes decedees avant 1970" and found this post on a French genealogy forum. Automatic translation follows: Before 1970 there are no INSEE statistics on death data. It is therefore necessary to use all the usual conventional means. For a death after 1945, one will generally find the mention of death on the fringes of the birth certificate. For a death between 1900 and 1970, when the acts are not online on the site of the departmental or municipal archives, there remains the solution to question the town hall of the place of death or burial. Search for death in Succession Tables and absences by registration office (in AD). Search for burial (raised, photo) on online sites. When you have no idea of the municipality or the date, it remains a complicated search, you must try to tighten the period from the other acts available (death of the spouse, marriage of the children, ...) who can give an indication. Here AD is "archives départementales", that is, you could seek out local records. It might be his place of birth which is needed, rather than last address? "Succession Tables and absences" is a translation of tables de successions et absences. Sometimes they are abbreviating this to TSA. Another quote: If you know where this person lived, you could consult the censuses, you would have their place and year of birth. Card Zero  (talk) 09:08, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your detailed explanation which I appreciate. `Simonschaim (talk) 07:33, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Crossing an electric fence
I've downloaded a couple of walks around Gloucestershire and they say "cross the electric fence". Of course, until I go on the walks, I don't know if the fence is there. In case it is, how do I cross an electric fence without getting zapped. I'm way to old to jump over it. Thanks! --TrogWoolley (talk) 10:30, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * There may be stiles at those places, allowing you to cross fences fairly easily. --Wrongfilter (talk) 10:34, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Such fences are designed to discourage livestock, and in my experience often have their strands wide enough apart that one can slip between them without touching flesh to them (dry clothing is enough to insulate the current). Also, the shocks they deliver (usually in brief pulses rather than continuously) are, though not exactly pleasant, bearable if one is expecting them. I have traversed electric fences several times in this manner. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.208.88.97 (talk) 13:17, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * A bit like that funfair game where you move a metal hoop along an undulating copper wire? Ah, what fun. Would you feel as confident if you had a pacemaker fitted? But, yes, it is low voltage and in pulses. If you're very lucky you might even find the box and be tempted turn it off temporarily. (Although that might be a criminal offence, lol.) Martinevans123 (talk) 14:05, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * In the UK the landowner must provide a means of crossing. Many have an insulated handle on the wire, you can use the handle to unhook the wire, pass through, and then re-connect after yourself. If you find a public right of way obstructed by an electric fence with no safe means of crossing then report it to the local authority. DuncanHill (talk) 14:10, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The IP suggestion sounds like a lot more fun. :) Maybe the ramblers who devise walks in Gloucestershire are just a lot more sadistic. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:18, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * As children we used to dare each other to touch electric fences. If you time it right you can touch between the pulses and not get shocked. Sometimes you can hear the pulse. DuncanHill (talk) 14:22, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * When nature's calling, don't be stalling, use your common sense. Before you let it flow, find a place to go, just don't whiz on the electric fence! -- Jayron 32 16:44, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * It's the greatest game in the whole yide yurld! Card Zero  (talk) 17:39, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * But see also Mythbusters Shantavira|feed me 08:58, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * It is important to note that one of the big differences between UK public rights-of-way and US rights-of-way is that in the US, with few exceptions, roads and other rights-of-way are usually public land and rarely, if ever, would require a person to cross private land. Rights of way in England and Wales often cross private property, and property owners are required to allow access to designated rights-of-way across their land.  Such rights-of-way may be very disused, to the point of being basically invisible, but as long as they a) exist on a map so designating it (some of which may date to time immemorial) and b) no subsequent law has removed said road from the designated map, the right-of-way exists and the public must have access to it.  The U.S. does have private roads, but in general all public roads are property of the state or local governments, and are built on public land; when new roads are designated the land is purchased from private owners via eminent domain and is then owned by the government itself.  The U.S. has no requirement that private property owners allow access to the public at large to cross their property, with the exception of specific easements attached to a property for use by things like public utilities to access their equipment.  There's no situation in the U.S. where I would be walking down a footpath, and where said footpath crosses someone's private property, and where they are required to allow me and anyone else the right to cross their property on that footpath.  The U.S. does have greenways that are often the equivalent of Long-distance footpaths in the UK, but again, these are on public land (or as part of a public/private partnership of some sort) and do not cross random people's farms or things like that; unless such land was previously acquired by the government for such use.  As always, please feel free to correct my assessment of UK law here, it comes from the understanding of an outsider, but this video by native Briton Tom Scott seems to confirm my understanding.  My thoughts are aligned with DuncanHill that these means of crossing said electric fence are required by UK law to allow people to access rights-of-way on said property.  -- Jayron 32 16:03, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Why is it important to note anything about US practices, when the question was about the UK? --184.144.97.125 (talk) 16:30, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Because I am an asshole, as you have correctly surmised. -- Jayron 32 16:33, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The British concept of public rights-of-way is pretty special. Most of the world is more similar to the US in this respect. PiusImpavidus (talk) 19:37, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , it's not so that generally public rights-of-way are wholly owned by the government. See for instance this discussion for Washington: As a general rule, a city or county right-of-way is an easement for public travel. (An easement is a privilege or a right, distinct from ownership, to use in some way the land of another.) So, typically, a city or county does not own the fee title to the property underlying the public right-of-way; the abutting property owners have that fee title, and that title usually extends to the centerline of the right-of-way. (Because this is a “general rule,” there are always exceptions.) But also that the state typically has fee title to the land for state highways. For Georgia: ...it is well established that where title to a public road or highway is not shown to be in the public by express grant, there is a presumption that it exists merely as an easement...the great majority of cases, however, an express grant or express dedication is by fee simple It will depend on the conveyances, municipal code, county ordinances, state laws, court rulings etc. Very often when walking along a sidewalk you would be walking on private land and the owner allows you and anyone else the right to cross their property on that footpath.
 * The Appalachian Trail began with 60% crossing private land, with easements and informal grants., but i think is now wholly or almost wholly publicly owned. There has been an effort since the seventies to acquire land for the National Trails System through purchase and use of eminent domain, but many still rely on easements (10% for the Pacific Crest Trail) Also rights-of-way may not dependent on a conveyance in title, but come from acts of the legislature such as various states beach access laws, various recreational use statutes, or prescriptive or adverse possession easements under common law such as for the dispute over the Crazy Mountain trails We are most certainly "right to exclude" over "right to roam", but there are many cases where a private landowner would be required to allow the public to cross their land. fiveby(zero) 21:52, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your corrections and expansions on the topic. -- Jayron 32 11:44, 13 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I remember having to cross an electric fence using such stiles when I was about 7 years old. Back then, my legs where too short to safely cross that way and I got zapped. When I had to cross the same fence again later, my mother offered me to hold her hand instead of the wet wooden post of the stile. Both of us walked on rubber boots, which seemed to work. I didn't get zapped again. PiusImpavidus (talk) 19:37, 12 May 2022 (UTC)


 * If there is a right of way, there should be pinch posts; two posts very close together but with enough room for you to turn sideways and squeeze past.--Ykraps (talk) 06:32, 13 May 2022 (UTC)