Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2022 October 5

= October 5 =

Did Ted Bundy torture any of his victims?
I ask because I previously added the "torture in the United States" category to his page, but it was removed on the grounds of insufficient evidence. This post might have been better suited to the talk page on his article, but since it's something I'm genuinely curious to know as someone who's interested in true crime, I thought I'd ask here instead. Sorry if this question comes off as tone-deaf, I just couldn't think of how else to phrase it. Hmm1994 (talk) 21:46, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You can search Google for "ted bundy" and "torture" as well as the rest of us. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 19:33, 6 October 2022 (UTC)


 * My full question was originally going to be:


 * "I ask because I previously added the "torture in the United States" category to his page, but it was removed on the grounds of insufficient evidence. I suppose 'torture' is a subjective term, but if you search on Google the words "Ted Bundy torture," a lot of sites seem to agree that he tortured many of those women before killing him. At the same time, though, it seems that a lot of his victims were (mercifully) bludgeoned unconscious beforehand, so how much suffering they actually endured is debatable... This post might have been better suited to the talk page on his article, but since it's something I'm genuinely curious to know as someone who's interested in true crime, I thought I'd ask here instead. Sorry if this question comes off as tone-deaf, I just couldn't think of how else to phrase it."


 * However, I removed most of the middle section because it seemed a little too morbid, even though I'm asking purely from an encyclopedic perspective after my mention of the word 'torture' was deleted from his article. Hmm1994 (talk) 21:13, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It appears that you have to define "torture." There are many references that state he tortured his victims after he killed them. If you define torture as only occuring before death, those references are not helpful. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 13:36, 7 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's what I was thinking. To me, "torture" implies slow and painful, therefore someone who was unconscious or dead before they were assaulted was not tortured. Compared to someone like John Wayne Gacy (who went out of his way to ensure his victims remained alive and alert for as long as possible), Bundy seems to have "just" been a murderer as opposed to a torturer. Having said that, the postmortem of at least one victim (Melissa Anne Smith) indicated she remained alive for up to a week following her disappearance, so make of that what you will. Likewise, several victims listed on his page are not explicitly stated to have been dead or unconscious before he attacked them. Hmm1994 (talk) 23:47, 7 October 2022 (UTC)


 * So, ultimately, should that category be omitted from his page or not? Honestly not sure myself. Hmm1994 (talk) 19:37, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The consensus seems to be that the status is "undetermined", so the original removal of the category due to "insufficient evidence" is valid. 136.56.52.157 (talk) 22:31, 11 October 2022 (UTC)