Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2023 August 13

= August 13 =

Hoping for help in dating a photo: early automobiles
Tried this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles but got no response so I'm trying it here.

Identifying the vehicles in this photo would do a lot to set an earliest possible date. I am certain that 1896 (the date when the bot scraped the DPLA database) is far too early, maybe even off by a decade or more, but I'd like to have something firmer than that to write to the GLAM we sourced it from (Seattle Public Library). - Jmabel &#124; Talk 02:50, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Linked the jargon term. --142.112.221.64 (talk) 08:45, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree that those cars are not 1896 models. If you do a Google Image search for "1896 automobiles", you can see that they all have the classic horseless carriage look. On the other hand, a Google Images search for "1906 automobiles" shows cars that look much more like the ones in this photo, although the one in the middle looks a bit older. Cullen328 (talk) 03:04, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * This looks to be the same time frame.... .... vs 1903 no cars yet  and a awning before a structured entrance was built. Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 03:09, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The first of three cars has a distinctive radiator with angles instead of curves. That could possibly be a Locomobile, which had similar shaped radiators in the 1905 to 1906 time frame. Cullen328 (talk) 03:16, 13 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The middle car looks like a Baker Electric Coupe, c. 1911. -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 04:14, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The headlamps on the original 1910 model look a little different (?). So, the earliest possible date is 1910 or perhaps (probably?) 1911. 136.54.106.120 (talk) 06:47, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Noted car collector Jay Leno owns a 1909 Baker Electic coupe, so it is unclear if 1910 is the first year of production of similar models. The company was founded in 1899, but their earliest models looked quite different. Cullen328 (talk) 07:05, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * According to our article, the "Inside Drive Coupe" was in production "by 1907", but the article is not very clear, as it mentions later unspecified models. Interestingly, this advertisement for the 1913 "Magnificent New Baker Coupe" boasts its new feature allowing the driver to "lever steer from the rear seat or wheel steer from the front" -- perhaps literally originating back-seat drivers. 136.54.106.120 (talk) 16:53, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Back-seat driver (off-topic)

 * Apparently the term originated from the fact that fire trucks were so long they were driven by two people - one in the front and one in the back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23D0:4AD:4B01:3198:12F7:1392:3674 (talk) 17:32, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I did a bit of digging, and the idiom predates the automobile, relating to (horse-drawn) carriages with passenger(s) in the back providing unwanted instructions, etc. I should provide source, of course, but my current browser doesn't record history (and I gtg). 136.54.106.120 (talk) 21:37, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find a particulalarly Reliable Source, but numerous websites give as a first citatation the Bismarck Tribune in 1921:
 * "A back-seat driver is the pest who sits on the rear cushions of a motor car and tells the driver what to do. He issues a lot of instructions, gives a lot of advice, offers no end of criticism. And doesn't do a bit of work."
 * So it would seem to have been figurative from the outset, unless you can do better. Alansplodge (talk) 12:46, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The fire truck reference is .  I would imagine that fire engines were horse-drawn prior to the twentieth century.   I used to work for "Norwich Union Fire Insurance Society Limited", owned by its policyholders founded in 1797 at a time when insurance companies gave their policyholders badges to display on their houses.   If the company fire engine arrived at a burning house which was displaying the badge of a rival insurer they would just let it burn. 2A02:C7B:107:2600:ECAB:8E5B:F6C7:E560 (talk) 14:05, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The "just let it burn" is an urban myth. The first engines to arrive would fight the fire regardless of whether the building was insured by their company or not, both because it might spread to buildings insured by them, and because no decent person would watch a property burn when they had the means to fight the fire. If and when engines from the building's insurers arrived, they would join in and perhaps take over while the non-insurers' engines retired to be available for the next fire, which might be at one of their own insured properties. See for example https://www.tomscott.com/corrections/firemarks/. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.140.169 (talk) 16:04, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That "urban myth" sounds like it's inspired by Crassus's firefighters. But that was, ah, some time ago. --142.112.221.64 (talk) 12:24, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * See hansom cab: the driver is seated behind the passengers. 2A02:C7B:107:2600:ECAB:8E5B:F6C7:E560 (talk) 14:11, 15 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Here's a reference to a source connecting the figurative use of back seat driver to an 1891 newspaper article:
 * -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 15:52, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The term "driving" in this general sense originally referred to driving a horse or team of horses. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:38, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Encyclopaedia Britannica (1949 issue) sums it up well (my emphasis):

Probably the first insurance office to possess fire engines was the "Royal Exchange," and an announcement was made by them in 1722 that they had provided several engines with fire men and water men and their implements for extinguishing fires. They were followed by many other offices who placed fire marks on the buildings they insured, and no doubt each particular brigade gave special attention to any premises insured in their own company.  In 1833 the London fire engine establishment was formed by a combination of offices, this consisted of 76 officers and men who took upon themselves practically the fire protection of London. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7B:103:A100:DE4:22A0:DAD0:45D6 (talk) 14:38, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

List of international days
Hi all, I remember that since day I found a great article with the list of international days like international dogs day or Star Wars day. I've been searching to find it but I can't find it anymore. I've found this one (Lists_of_holidays) but it's not the one I'm looking for. Could anyone help? Thanks! 2402:800:61CD:CAF4:7DB1:44ED:A0B3:CAC4 (talk) 16:06, 13 August 2023 (UTC)


 * We have Category:Unofficial observances, and UNESCO international days. I see no international dogs day, although BBC News (children's edition) asserts that this is on 26 August and was created in 2004 by pet lifestyle expert and author Colleen Paige, who is also responsible for National Cat Day in various countries. Card Zero  (talk) 18:09, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * also asserts that 26 August is International Dog Day, and the Dutch article Hondendag agrees, while the description of File:Elisa Jordana @ International Dog Day 2017.jpg would have it on 25 June. --Lambiam 07:09, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps List of multinational festivals and holidays? No international dogs, but Star Wars Day is listed. --Lambiam 07:09, 14 August 2023 (UTC)