Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2023 August 3

= August 3 =

Use of the word 'guys'
Is 'guys' a common word in every country (e.g. Britain & Ireland)? Or just something used only in America? 86.140.120.13 (talk) 19:25, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Looking at Newspapers.com (pay site), restricting it to just London, I found an article on June 6, 2009, in which a columnist named Philip Norman decries the ever-more-frequent use of "guys" in England to refer to any group regardless of gender(s). He says it comes from American TV, e.g. the show Friends, and he says that on the show Britain's Got Talent it sees frequent usage that way. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:41, 3 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Regrettably yes: These days, guy “male person” has become very common indeed in Britain and, in a further development, the plural form guys as used by younger people is no longer sex-specific, referring to women and girls as well.
 * Where did you guys come from? (2022).
 * Alansplodge (talk) 21:49, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Note, though, that this gender-neutral sense is strictly confined to the two-word term you guys, which functions syntactically and semantically as a pronoun, a synonym of the dialectal plural pronoun yous. --Lambiam 10:19, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * In outdoor education in the UK, it's common to address a mixed group of young people as "guys", because otherwise you'd have to say "boys and girls" which is rather awkward and sounds too jeuvenile. Used it myself despite my deep-seated dislike of Americanisms. Alansplodge (talk) 11:49, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I think I'd transition from "kids" to "folks" myself. "Guys" applied to females just jars and seems all wrong. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:36, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Porky Pig and Goons and nobody else can get away with "folks". DuncanHill (talk) 16:19, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Bill O'Reilly calls his audience "the folks". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:23, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Who he? DuncanHill (talk) 23:36, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * A great Australia leggie in the 1930s and 40s; later a successful cricket journalist. (Did I get that right?) HiLo48 (talk) 23:51, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure, dat's da guy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:29, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I wasn't going to bother replying 's above, but just this morning one of the posts on a local ocial media group started "A lot of you folks are stuck in the past !!!" So it's not just me and cartoon characters.  I suspect this could be an ENGVAR issue or possible (shudder!) an age issue. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:55, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I didn't say you couldn't use it, only that you couldn't get away with it! DuncanHill (talk) 09:03, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Should I point out that the word guy originates from Guy Fawkes? It's time this Britishism was expunged from the American language. Card Zero  (talk) 16:08, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, that'll happen. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:21, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * There is no room for gender ambiguity when collecting guys and dolls whether it be for a cover-band active until 1985 or a current dog race. Philvoids (talk) 13:48, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * So it's a very common word in all countries? 86.140.120.13 (talk) 18:27, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Everyone will know what it means, that doesn't mean everyone uses it all the time. 'Guys', I would say, is somehow impersonal, uninvolved, definitely an Americanism, could even sound affected. There are other terms. "Alright, lads?" for example, is how I would greet a group of friends (I'm from England). MinorProphet (talk) 00:53, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes,, most Americans know that "lads" is commonplace usage in the UK, but very few Americans would refer to a mixed group of males and females as "lads". We may refer to a six year old boy in short pants as a lad. That's about it. Cullen328 (talk) 22:47, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * , I wasn't suggesting that 'lads' was a mixed-gender appellation. I have no female friends, and I was imagining meeting the usual crowd of blokes. There's always "Hi lads and ladettes," but that's close to being facetious. :) MinorProphet (talk) 23:19, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Very few Americans use the term "lads" frequently, unless they're trying to "sound British". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:26, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Is that a thing? Examples please. MinorProphet (talk) 15:58, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Apparently, yes. Saved you the trouble. MinorProphet (talk) 23:37, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * While few are likely to take serious offense, it's worth noting that at least some people perceive the use of "guys" to address a mixed-gender group as mildly offensive and something to be avoided. . That last one includes some alternatives.  -- Avocado (talk) 14:06, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Language nannyism. Fighting against the common-usage tide. But expressions like "y'all" work. Meanwhile, in this regional ad, see if you can spot another American usage that some find annoying: ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:20, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It's difficult to spot anything that isn't annoying... It's quite mild as local ads go, I seem to remember a load of used car dealers yelling at me when I was in Atlanta on business a few years back. MinorProphet (talk) 23:19, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ha. I was thinking specifically of "coming with", with the "us" understood. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:24, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It may have been replaced by some other up-to-date phrase by now, but the lads™ round these parts used to say "We're going park", as in "to the park". MinorProphet (talk) 15:58, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It may be fighting against the tide, but that doesn't by definition mean that they're wrong to do so or that the common usage is entirely harmless. I've just switched to using other terms.  It's a minimal adjustment, and if it makes some people more comfortable (more people than I would have guessed initially -- it's not something people tend to stick out their necks for), it's worth it. -- Avocado (talk) 12:58, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * "Guys 'n' Gals" and variations thereof is quite a popular shop name.  There's a "Galz and Guyz" in Walthamstow.   As for "come with", see
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 April 30,
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 June 20,
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 April 30,
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 June 13 and
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 December 21. 2A02:C7B:117:5200:9921:6A9E:88E6:D35 (talk) 16:00, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Is the Walthamstow venue a night club or a hairdressers? Or have they re-purposed the Town Hall? MinorProphet (talk) 18:29, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

...clauses preceded by "so". In Memoriam Kenneth Wood, inventor of the "Kenwood" Mixer and the Reversible Toaster.

So. Farewell then Ken Wood.

Inventor of the Reversible Toaster.

Reversible the of Inventor Wood Ken.

Then farewell So.

E. J. Thribb (17½) (Private Eye, 1997)


 * English is (fairly) unique in that it's lost most of its inflections.  Not using the pronoun is normal in other languages because the information is in the verb ending.   It may, however, be needed for clarity.   When I was living in Portugal I was discussing the behaviour of my landlady in her absence.   After I finished, a listener commented Ela é doente (she is ill). 2A02:C7B:117:5200:9D75:B5AB:7A7:39BD (talk) 12:08, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Feature of the oath of office
Hi. The image in the link below, shows Gov. Bob Graham grappling with his first oath of office as Governor of Florida. You can't see much; along with his right hand raised, could he have had his left hand on the Bible as is customary in the United States? Thank you very much. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Florida_Governor-elect_Graham_being_sworn_in_by_Chief_Justice_Arthur_England.jpg Andreoto (talk) 19:26, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Most likely. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:33, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe it was a Holy Bible like these. We'll never know. --Lambiam 10:10, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That's ingenuity for ya! And it could be that instead of an actual Bible, the governor might have put his left hand on an iphone with a picture of a Bible. Maybe the OP could see if there are photos taken from other angles. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:29, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Snowfall in Florida is far more plausible than the governor using an iPhone in 1979. It actually snowed in Tallahassee that day. Cullen328 (talk) 00:14, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Anyway, I couldn't find anything that said he didn't use a Bible, which would have been remarkable, but this article says that because it was snowing, "Chief Justice Arthur England, tired of shivering, began the ceremony 15 minutes early, declaring it noon by judicial fiat". Alansplodge (talk) 16:48, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Did he move it back, or are Floridians technically still a quarter hour ahead of the rest of us? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:14, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * They were well over a quarter hour behind when the Honorable Chief Justice executed his time warp manoeuvre. --Lambiam 19:58, 6 August 2023 (UTC)