Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2023 December 28

= December 28 =

Why are my local beaches not protected by lifeguards? (+ bonus question)
I would like to know why it is that the beaches in my area of Southwestern Scotland are not protected by lifeguards. This lifeguard protection I am talking about includes things such as lifeguards saving drowning people, different flags to indicate if it is safe to swim and surf or not, and also warning signs. I notice that places like California and Hawaii are heavily protected, but the beaches in my area in the South-West of Scotland have nothing like this, even though we can have 25 degrees centigrade summers, jellyfish, and rough water currents and dodgy weather at times. I feel it would be useful for people in my area to know how safe the beaches are, so I find it to be a bit of a outrage that no one is smart enough to use flags, signs and lifeguards, even though these things make beaches far safer than they otherwise would be. It’s not that we are remote either, some coastal towns here have over 15,000 people, and Ayr in South Ayrshire has around 45,000 citizens. So, what on earth is going on, and why can’t Bonnie Scotland have California style lifeguards, looking after its sandy beaches? Thank you. BONUS QUESTION: What are the criteria for a good surfing beach? We also have a lack of these near me. Pablothepenguin (talk) 00:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm wondering who you think should be making this happen. Lifesaving here in Australia began as an entirely voluntary movement. Even now, the vast majority of lifesavers are volunteers. So, maybe you and a few mates need to start the ball rolling by forming your own Surf Lifesaving Club. Have a look at Surf lifesaving for a lot more details. HiLo48 (talk) 00:26, 28 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Some California area lifeguards are part of the fire department (such as Los Angeles County Lifeguards and San Diego Fire-Rescue Department). Many northern California beaches have no lifeguard at all. RudolfRed (talk) 00:56, 28 December 2023 (UTC)


 * See . There are lifeguards in some Scotland beaches.  Contact RNLI to find out why they don't cover your favorite beach.  RudolfRed (talk) 01:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Because no-one is paying for it. The RNLI is funded by donations, they can only use the resources they have. Once enough people fund the service, they can provide it. Nanonic (talk) 03:09, 28 December 2023 (UTC)


 * See RNLI Find my nearest lifeguarded beach. I'm not sure how many of these are entirely charitably funded or are subsidised by local authorities, which is the case for Bournemouth on the South Coast:
 * The Royal National Lifeboat Institution (RNLI) provides beach safety in Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole, funded by BCP Council.
 * In the case of Bournemouth, which has an exeptionally long and very popular stretch of beaches, there is also a volunteer lifeguard club, the Bournemouth Lifeguard Corps, but presumably their volunteers can only be available in their free time. Alansplodge (talk) 11:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Additionally Surf Life Saving Great Britain provide volunteer patrols at popular surfing beaches, but as you say that your local beaches are unsuitable for surfing, don't expect to see them there. Alansplodge (talk) 11:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Now that you mention it, I wonder what it is that makes a particular beach suitable for surfing. Why are there no beaches like this on the west coast of Scotland? Pablothepenguin (talk) 15:55, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Shouldn’t there at least be someone at my beach who can mark it ff with coloured flags that indicate safety. Pablothepenguin (talk) 15:55, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Why? If a lot of people use it, then there may be a case for lifeguards.  However most beaches in the UK are not "recognised bathing beaches" and so provided.  If you are concerned then find a guarded beach, but you may need to travel.  The usual advice is to ask the locals, they are likely to know if there are any specific hazards. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 17:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Who, exactly, do you think should be responsible for carrying out these tasks and paying their costs?
 * If this is 'your local beach', presumably you are (if an adult) paying local council tax – perhaps you should petition your Council to raise the tax in order to pay for and provide these services.
 * Why are you not able to use your own common sense and decide for yourself whether or not it is safe to bathe, rather than have someone else tell you? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.111.170 (talk) 18:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Because I can’t see what lurks beneath the water. I’m thinking jellyfish and sharks. I saw a lot of jellyfish last summer. Besides, So-Cal actually uses flags to mark which areas are safe for swimming and which aren’t. I mean, I can’t see submerged rocks either. Pablothepenguin (talk) 00:53, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If in doubt, stay out. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:29, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You may think that 25°C air temperature and (I suppose) around 16°C water temperature is nice for swimming, but most people like it a bit warmer. Along the Mediterranean or in Southern California, it easily gets 10 to 15°C warmer. You may consider Ayr, with 45000 people, a sizeable town, but compared to Los Angeles (twice the population of Scotland) it's nothing. Combined, that means that the beaches in SW Scotland aren't very busy. I live a bit further south (Netherlands) and our beaches are only actively guarded on the busiest days (5°C warmer than you get) in the most popular areas, that is, those within commuting distance from a city of at least half a million people. 15000 people is what I call a village. Glasgow is about 50 km from your beach, a little too far to call it commuting distance.
 * The species of sharks and jellyfish you find in Western Europe are generally not dangerous. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:22, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I was thinking 26 to 31 °C sounded a little warm for California, so I googled around a bit and found seatemperature.net, which shows a graph of "average water temperature change" for Los Angeles and San Diego. Neither graph goes much above 72 or 73 °F over the course of a year, which would be less than 23 °C.  However the graphs don't seem to show diurnal variation; if that's the average over a day, then I suppose it might be a little warmer at say 4 PM, at least where the sand drops off shallowly.
 * Subjectively, summer ocean water is pretty comfortable in SoCal, but there's still a little feeling of shock diving in the first time. You wouldn't get that at 31 °C (and it would be way too warm for exercise swimming). --Trovatore (talk) 18:37, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Glasgow is about 50 km from your beach, a little too far to call it commuting distance." Definitely a US vs UK/Europe difference here, as that isn't that bad by American standards. I know lots of people who drive 30 miles for their jobs.-User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:38, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * No. For 34 years I drive at least 30 miles commuting and my wife still does.  It's not that uncommon in south-east England.  To get a place near my work I'd have needed many times my salary, and then I'd be stuck in London. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 18:47, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * For a job, it may happen. People don't like such one-hour commutes, but in our plutocratic society you may not have a choice. But I considered commuting distance context-dependent. To go an afternoon to the beach, it appears that 40 km is about the limit here, and that only with a straight railway leading directly from the city to the beach. Did I stretch the meaning of "commuting" too much? Would many people in Glasgow say, ‘The weather is nice, let's go to the beach this afternoon?’ Without that, it won't get busy on the beaches of Troon, Prestwick and Ayr. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:43, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Commuting is periodically recurring travel between one's place of residence and place of work or study" which is why I queried it. I'd agree though that a 50 mile run from Glasgow to the beach would be too far for a stress-free afternoon. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Still seems quite doable to this American.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:41, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * What would qualify as "suitable" for surfing? Big waves? A lack of rocks to crash into? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:28, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Local Factors Affecting Surf Quality". --Lambiam 19:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Doesn't good surf depend upon deep ocean swell coming ashore? I'm thinking of Hawaii, California and closer Cornwall.  Southwestern Scotland is shielded by Ireland, so there will only be the shorter period waves.  Any experts here who can comment? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:39, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * See Surfing in Scotland. Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ta. "The best surf spots in Scotland are located on the north coast." sort of confirms what I supposed.  At least on the west coast the gulf stream keeps the water a bit warmer, not like swimmming in the North Sea!  Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:51, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The better the surf, the more dangerous it is, no? . 2A02:C7B:116:E200:A1DA:3FF2:B0B4:3244 (talk) 17:39, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Be careful what you wish for. If you swim more than 50 yards (maybe it's even 50 feet?) from shore, the LA lifeguards will home in on you and order you back.  Makes me pretty angry really.  But if you go up towards Malibu you can find unsurveilled beaches where you can take your own chances. --Trovatore (talk) 20:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If it makes you angry, why then obey the "order"? fiveby(zero) 22:16, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Presumably they would be waiting for me when I came out and give me a ticket. I'm not sure of that; I haven't really researched it. --Trovatore (talk) 22:23, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It would be worthwhile to research it. Maybe the only penalty is that if you go out too far and then run into trouble, they won't help you. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:39, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I haven't managed to find specific information for LA, but San Diego's website says "[i]t is a misdemeanor to fail to follow the lawful order of a lifeguard". I would be surprised if LA were more tolerant. --Trovatore (talk) 01:13, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It gets interesting in North Carolina, where I have been fussed at by plenty of lifeguards. The beach is technically state property, yet local towns get to pass and enforce laws related to public safety on land adjacent to their boundaries. As far as enforcing what someone does when floating or swimming in the ocean, I find their jurisdictional reasoning even more suspect. They regularly stop boaters in open water though, so I doubt I I would be doing anything other than wasting everyone's time if I wanted to challenge anything in court. Beach drifter (talk) 01:32, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This sounds very familiar. I had to give up snow skiing when ski patrol began writing speeding tickets.  I honestly don't miss it. Viriditas (talk) 07:22, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * , I mean I can see how that's annoying, but on the other hand it depends on how crowded the slope is. There are reckless skiers (and boarders) that could injure other people, or scare them badly even if they manage to miss them. --Trovatore (talk) 19:32, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * My understanding was that there was an informal tradition in the past that allowed for skiers to unofficially bomb down a steep run provided it was extremely early in the morning and the slopes were empty. Those days are gone. Viriditas (talk) 20:00, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) Ask your local council
 * 2) Geology. DuncanHill (talk) 01:31, 30 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I notice that places like California and Hawaii are heavily protected
 * Au contraire, it took years, in some areas decades, to get lifeguards in these places. The history of lifeguard stations in Hawaii was long fought over many years.  For whatever reason, at one time, the state was very much against it.  There's still running skirmishes to get lifeguard stations in certain areas. Viriditas (talk) 05:48, 2 January 2024 (UTC)


 * On Trovatore's point, in Portugal's Algarve (and no doubt elsewhere along the coast) there are secret beaches - that is the joy of them.  If every beach were patrolled by lifeguards they wouldn't be secret any more.   But there are life-threatening riptides.   In one case, a couple went down to the beach and the wife unsuccessfully tried to dissuade her husband from entering the water.   She was keeping a careful eye on him when a fellow hotel guest struck up a conversation.   The husband got into difficulties and when the wife looked up after the conversation finished it was too late to save him.   On the northwest coast, a family group on holiday went down to the beach.   One man went into the water and was swept out to sea.   Another swam out to help and was also unable to get back to shore.   Others followed and all perished - in the end there was only one woman left on the beach who reported the incident to the authorities. 92.8.151.157 (talk) 15:47, 2 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Sobering thoughts. It's worth reading the section Rip tide which is good advice promulgated by various rescue agencies. See also Rip current which deals with rip currents which are often incorrectly called rip tides. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:58, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Your first link above seems a bit problematic, in that the heading is "Surviving rip tides" but the content is about rip currents. It doesn't seem to give any advice for what to do if you're caught in an actual rip tide.  Presumably it stops at low tide, but that could be hours. --Trovatore (talk) 17:54, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I take your point, perhaps you'd care to upgrade the article? The advice is still good though, swim across the current (tidal or rip) and never fight it.  Incidentaly the same advice holds for rivers and estuaries; don't try to swim (back) to the exit point, swim across the current until you get to slack water or the bank. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 19:16, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok, I will probably make enquiries with my local authority and other relevant folks at some point. I think they will help me. Note that I’ve always been annoyed at the weather here, and the fact that our beaches aren’t as good as the ones in California. Pablothepenguin (talk) 16:45, 3 January 2024 (UTC)