Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2023 May 29

= May 29 =

The first flag of the Dutch East India Company?
What was the very first flag of the Dutch East India Company? Vyacheslav84 (talk) 10:18, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The earliest reference that I could find is the flag used by Henry Hudson in 1609 during his 3rd expedition to find a northwest passage to Asia. The Dutch East India flag consisted of the orange, white, and blue flag of the Netherlands with the letters A.O.C. (Algemeene Oost-Indise Compagnie) added to the central stripe. The top stripe was later changed to red, as seen here. --136.54.99.98 (talk) 16:07, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The Dutch East India Company was established in 1602. The octrooi (letter patent) does not name the newly consolidated company but refers to it as just the Compaignie or sometimes the vereenichde Compaignie (united [i.e. consolidated] company). The commonly used Dutch name is Vereenichde Oost-Indische Compaignie (VOC). Curiously, the page referred to by the first link above (not a "reliable source") shows an image with the VOC logo also known from coins issued by the company, while the text has "AOC". The AOC flag is apparently based on a description found here, but I do not know the relation between this AOC and the VOC. Hudson was employed by specifically the Amsterdam chamber of the VOC, which, according to the same source, used a logo composed of the letters OCVA. This page has an image of the logo used by the Amsterdam chamber, which is the usual VOC logo crowned with a superscript A. A flag with that logo can be seen here. The general VOC flag would have carried just the VOC logo without superscript. While it is likely that the background was originally the Prince's Flag, we need a reliable source stating that explicitly. --Lambiam 18:42, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Here is a mention of "the Prince's flag—i.e . the Dutch East India Company's flag". --Lambiam 19:00, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * This source, a 19th-century historical examination of the origins of the Dutch flag, states that on all paintings of the main VOC settlements the flag is red-white-blue. However, this 17th-century source mentions the Prince's flag being flown in 1656 by a mission of the VOC to China. --Lambiam 09:43, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The ships of the VOC will originally have sailed under the Prince's flag, but this was then as the national flag used according to convention as ensign, without a logo. Later, the ensign became the red-white-blue Statenvlag, also without a logo. We know from historical paintings that the VOC at some time used the Statenvlag with the VOC logo added. There seems to be no concrete evidence, from paintings or otherwise, that they earlier flew the Prince's flag plus logo . There is in fact a political argument making this unlikely. The preference for one flag or the other correlated strongly with whether one was an Orangist or a supporter of the States faction. The regents in control of the VOC were generally strongly staatsgezind. --Lambiam 09:42, 1 June 2023 (UTC)